when they get older and age out of school system with a dx of mr you get many more services. if dx with autism and iq over 70 you get basically nothing after 21. pa working on autism waiver. get ivolved now in your states if you want services for your child after school is done.
The vast majority of autistic and PDD-NOS kids I know (of course, I don't know the whole world) get at least a BORDERLINE MR score on standard IQ tests. Often much lower. That's because standard IQ tests are VERBAL. Even very talkative ASD kids don't process well, verbally. They process better visually. I have always arranged for a completely nonverbal IQ test for our son. No one has ever questioned that since he has hearing loss and nonverbal IQ tests have LONG been used with deaf/HI kids. On the nonverbal IQ tests, he always scores in the low 90's. 100 is a dead average IQ. 90 to 110 is average. 80 to 89 is low average. 70 to 79 is borderline. 69 and below is MR (although Soc. Sec. requires 59 or below to qualify as MR). I think my son would score much lower than the 90's if he were given a standard IQ test, but the law says that testing cannot play into a child's disability. So any child who has a significant speech/language disability should not be tested using an instrument that is based on speech/language. Typically, there is HUGE scatter in IQ tests that ASD kids take and that means the IQ test is invalid for that child. My point is that it's probably possible to GET an MR score on most ASD kids if you need one (for benefits, for example) but it won't technically be a valid assessment of your child's intelligence. A nonverbal IQ test will be a much closer assessment. Also, HOW your child learns in reality will help you understand if your child has MR or not. If your child "gets" things relatively easily when taught in a way that works for him, then he's probably not MR. The important thing is to know how your child learns. Work with him. Pay attention to how teachers who are successful work with him. The fact is that some of our children do have mental retardation. Some do not. But ALL have to be taught in ways that get through to them and those ways are usually not the ways typical kids learn. My son does not have MR, but that has not meant that he's been able to learn all the things typical kids learn. He has not. The fact is, he is functionally retarded. That is MY phrase -- the way I think about his issues. When he is with mildly MR teens and young adults, he seems like them. He gets along with them. He can do math and read better than they can, but he functions a lot like they do.
As far as school classification goes, Autism trumps MR. If a child is on the spectrum, he should be classified under Autism no matter what his IQ is. Yes, IQ is a predictor of future success or lack of it. But that's the truth for ALL of us, for the most part. And a high IQ doesn't make someone "normal." Look at Temple Grandin. She's literally a genius and I'm sure her IQ score is way higher than mine. But if you've ever seen her, in person or on TV, or have ever heard her speak, she is certainly not like the typical girl next door. She would be considered "weird" in any NT gathering if she weren't so famous. Her best friends are cows, for goodness sakes. This woman is still severely autisitic. But her extraordinarily high IQ has given her the ability to thrive in a career she invented for herself. So IQ can predict the ability to overcome the obstacles caused by autism. It does not get rid of autism.
NYMommy3 -- What difference do YOU think it would make if you found out for sure your son has MR? He'd STILL have to be taught. You'd STILL have to have high expectations of him. How would things change for you if you were told today that he has low intelligence? Do you think that would change the way you'd approach him at home or ask them to approach him in school? Many ASD kids are either MR or functionally MR in the sense that they might learn stuff reasonably easily but can't really put what they learn to good use in real life.
I guess I think that MR/not MR doesn't really matter. We can still demand that methods that help our kids progress be used with them. Not one of us would say that Down Syndrome kids shouldn't be educated bc they all have MR as part of their Syndrome. MR doesn't devalue them. It just means they need to have special methods used with them so that they can learn what they need to learn. Same with our kids. And that holds true with kids with ASD no matter what their IQ level. All our kids need to have special learning methods used with them. As a mom, you know how your child learns, what he can learn easily, what's really challenging for him. You can probably figure out ways to get around many of those challenges. That's all you really have to know.
He stims a lot, he behaves and knows about as much as a 2 1/2 year old, and hasn't learned or progressed any higher, even after 2 years of Head Start. His IQ tested at 69. He's not withdrawn at home, very sweet and affectionate (most of the time).What to the folks at school tell you about his lack of progress? Has he been making progress on his IEP goals? Is the lack of progress with just academics or with general cognative skills, too (language, problem solving, etc.)? I don't know what the school has tried, but maybe he's one of these kids that really needs some ABA type teaching to get him going. At least with data intensive therapy, you'd know right away whether the particualar teaching technique is working or not, and if not, you could try to find a different strategy. Ah, getting off topic, NY, sorry. I'm assuming that these things haven't been tried. It just seems to me, from my layman's perspective, that after two years of school but with no progress recorded, that they'd try other things besides what they've been going - perhaps they have, just wondering. Sorry to get OT, I'm just trying to offer suggestions, though I know I'm probably stating the obvious.my point is do not be concerned about mr dx. my son tests at 36. he has many delays speech big part some physical. tested with nonverbal tests but didn't know tester so wouldn't do anything for him. i feel he is higher but probably still mr. in pa he is eligible for family waiver due to mr dx. pa now has autism waiver but only 50 getting it this year long waiting list. don't care mysel about label if it can get him into some sort of job training.I wouldn't worry about the label or the IQ either, but I would worry about the lack of progress academically. If the lack of progress she's referring to are progress on standardized tests, than that's one thing. If the lack of progress is academics, then I would be more concerned. Is he learning his letters, letter sounds, numbers, pre-math and pre-reading skills? Is he making progress with those things? If not, and they've been trying to teach him academics, that'd be a concern for me. It means that their teaching methods are not working and that they should be trying a different approach. Again, I'm getting off topic, so I'll just sneak out now.I agree that IQ, even if it DOES means something, is really not reliably tested until mid-childhood and then not with verbal IQ test if the child has speech/language issues. Yes, things are more difficult for kids with autism AND mental retardation, but that's also true for kids WITHOUT autism but with mental retardation. Since our kids have to be TAUGHT everything, if they have other issues that drag down their ability to be taught, that doesn't help. But I personally don't think that becomes clear, no matter what the test scores, until later in childhood. The BEST thing (and, really, the ONLY thing) we can do is try to get the individual child to GAIN SKILLS using whatever works for that particular child. Some kids reach plateau points. That is why measuring progress is so critical. Far more important than getting an IQ score. No matter what the IQ score is, the law says that the child must be making "more than trivial progress." If that happens, the appropriate response is to call an IEP Meeting and ask the Team to increase frequency and intensity of services. Of course, the methodologies being used with the child MUST be research-based, peer-reviewed programs or techniques that have been SHOWN to work for the particular issues the child has. Ask the IEP Team how the way your child is being educated now is doing that and how the approaches might be intensified to help your child actually MAKE progress.
PS -- Yes, Shelley, 89 is basically average. I know plenty of kids whose REAL IQs (they are older) are in the mid-70's and NO ONE can tell that there's a thing wrong with them. Of course, these kids don't have autism, but they are considered "borderline MR." The only thing their less-than-average IQs seem to affect is whether or not they'll go to college, not whether or not they'll get a HS diploma and a decent job. THe things that stand between our kids and that have much less to do with IQ and much more to do with EQ (emotional intelligence).
Thanks Fred:)
I thought under 90< was MR?? When she got 89 I was happy because she was so nonverbal and noncompliant I thought it would of been much less. This was her overall score too..her espressive/verbal surely was below 70...I will have to go back and look at them to find out.
Shelley, on most standard tests 80-120 is considered average. Below 80 is "borderline" and below 70 is MR.
NY - do you feel that he spends a lot of time withdrawn and/or stimming and such since the surgeries and the bowel problems? Or, is he "right with you" most of the time, apparently aware of the world around him for the most part, interacting well, curious about the environment, etc?
Also, do you think is failure to progress would show up in testing? What sorts of public educational therapies is he getting?
I don't think that the girls have MR, but both scored that way when assessed at three, though they were barely talking at the time. Neither tested MR at four, but, Abbie especially, had some subtests down in that range that were only pulled up by relativley high scores that offset the low ones.
Abbie clearly has a harder time learning than Evie, though. She's always one step behind with all academic skills.
I don't know how to tell if they are, as tzoya says, functionally MR at this point - I don't know what skills you could use to gauge that with a four year old. They are outstanding in some areas, actually better than the NT peers, while in other areas they function at about the level of a typical two year old. Hard to say how it will all shake out down the road.
Currently, the both seem to learn their preschool level 'academics', so that is a good sing, I guess, but when things start getting more abstract we might be in for some trouble.
Sarah scored mildly MR at 89 IQ and it jumped 30 points when she became verbal.. the scattered skills are the most prominent in autism and what some look for when diagnosing because they can have really superior scores in nonverbal and totally bomb the verbal part or vice/versa...but they do learn as Tzoya said..just differently:) I have read many books on kids that were diagnosed with MR/autism and went on to college later on..the scores are completely subjective on so many levels but are the only means schools have to assess your child.
Tzoya- I love your new phrase..my mom used to tell me that Sarah was socially retarded..I didnt like it much but understood it perfectly
What options do ppl consider if their child is MR & autistic? Would the chikd fare better in special schools instead of the parents trying their best to mainstream??
Shelley, 89 is actually is the borderlands between average and low average - quite a ways from MR! I think on most standard tests, 70 is considered the threshold between 'borderline' and mild MR. If she scored that high when she was essentially non-verbal, it's no surprise how well she's doing now.
Rita, I wouldn't think any test on a 2 year old would be a reliable indicator of anything. These tests are greatly influenced by language fluency, so if your child is language delayed, she'll sscore worse on a standard test than she would on a non-verbal test, so that's important to keep in mind.
Nick's IQ score was in the MR range, but I know IQ testing is very difficult for an ASD child. However, to me he just seems to have stopped at about 30 months. All of his tests put him in the range across the board.
I suppose in the long run it doesn't make a difference, but if he isn't MR, wouldn't that give him a better chance to learn and have a more functioning life then the MR/ASD combo?
I'm taking my guy to a developmental too. We've got an appointment coming up that we've been waiting 9 months for!
He'll be in a summer program for special education, with people trained in educating autistic kids, and in September will be in an 8:1:1 TEACCH program, along with an aide to keep him on task and focused. I'm hoping some progression happens.
We have not had ds tested yet. He just turned 6, so scores would be a BIT more reliable - but I think I would have a non-verbal done. We just had a reading readiness eval done - which used some overall measures for intelligence/reading readiness. Ds was in panic mode that day - the evaluator had him totally pegged that he is afraid to fail and would rather not try than fail. So, she was extremely good at getting him to cooperate on most things. He scored above-average on some things and way below average on others like gross motor - because he wuoldn't do them at all. Her opinion? Ds is very much in the gifted range - she has evaluated tons of kids over the years and said he is one of the brighter ones she has ever seen. The trick will be to figure out how to bring that out of him and to teach him in a way that is non-threatening to him. I am SO glad we had this eval done and it is in writing, so that I can show his teachers for next year. He has a very good imagination and if you just can go into his fantasy world (currently of pirates) then you can get him to do a lot more things easily.
I think that some kids with autism can also have MR. But I think that it is not nearly as many as people once thought. If we could find a way to teach the kids in a way that THEY can learn best - I think you would find most of them to be at least of average intelligence. But, maybe I'm just wishful thinking...
NYMommyof 3.. my son sounds very similiar to your son. He is 6yr and we just recently had his IQ tested and he scored 69. I have felt for almost 2yr that there seems to be more going to with him than just autism only. My gut feeling tells me that he is more MR than autism..he does have some autism traits..but I he just doesn't get it with alot of things. We just recently saw the dev. ped for a follow up appt. he told us that our son has really made no progress in a years time.
Next year we have decided to put him in a autistic classroom..we are really that will help some. For the past 3years he has been in a dev.delayed classroom.
My sons weren't tested until they were in Kindergarten neither are MR.Not yet - the psychologist told us that any kind of intelligence testing done before the age of 5 or 6 was very suspectNYmom- H tests in that first category. Hoping that with intensive therapy (25+ hrs/wk) which will start in the fall we will see some progress.
He did increase 5 points since the last IQ test (10 mo ago) with limited therapy (2 hrs/wk professional OT, ST and parent one-on-one)
Have they been measuring the progress and re-adjusting his program? (With H in EI-The only readjustment made has been by me! btw!!!)
It's really time for me to face the facts that Nick is MR. It is clear to me in everything that he does and how he acts that there is more then autism with my son.
Has anyone else felt this way at some point, then had a change? Or is dealing with MR and autism?
Well, I am from NY too, and have 3 sons. My youngest in dx MR and autistic (going through more tests soon). The Autism dx is new to me, he was dx MR 1 year ago. Why do you think your son is MR?We have had no IQ testing or any other intellegence based stuff done, but my ped repeatedly tells me that Ethan has some brain damage/mr. i don't know how he thinks he knows this. Maybe he's just not well informed of autistic behavior or maybe he is very informed of mr behavior. He has never really explained to me. I figure at this point, I guess it doesn't matter. He is still pretty young though, not quite 3 1/2. If this turns out to be the case, a whole new set of issues I imagine. Telling the difference between which behavior comes from which. Or maybe it doesn't matter. Who knows. My brain is full these days. Has Nick had IQ testing or other testing done? Is this something your Drs. or therapists have talked about? I know you have been having a tough time lately. I imagine appropriate school placement with a dual dx would be a whole other can of worms.