defiant phase... | Autism PDD
Thanks - I'll just keep up with the captain hard-ass routine regarding time outs and such, but I'm going to try to keep from yelling myself (hard to do!). I like the idea of a 1-2-3 visual prompt, as if I can do something visual, it will keep me from having to raise my voice to overpower her raised voice - you get the picture :)No, they still do that sometimes, but I think it's more of a communication issue than a TOM issue. I mean, an NT five year old came up to me the other day and started talking about some character in some book he was reading and I had no idea what the kid was talking about. I think our kids do the same thing, but just use less words. Obviously, Evie has some degree of TOM. Do you think if Anthony did something really bad (in his mind), that he'd try to hide the evidence from you? That's textbook TOM - especially if the something wasn't something he'd done before and thus he had to imagine your reaction, etc. How do you think he'd do if he, like, had an accident and thought you'd be mad about it?
I've never tried the Sally Ann test with Anthony - I've been meaning to do it.
The psychologist that oversees his ABA program was observing some ABA with him over the weekend and witnessed him talking to his therapist about a stuffed dog that he assumed she knew all about (of course she didn't - the dog is at my mom's house in another state). She said this was a TOM issue and they're working on a program to help him with this. I remember the girls having that same issue. Has that resolved?
Yes, I have found that if I talk softer / quieter or not at all - he will try harder to hear me instead of overpower me. The visual prompt helps bunches too. Hey Fred,, Have no advice.. Just wanted to say i know what you are going through Brett is in the i do not care and i hate you phase I can't stand it.. He has had alot of time in time out lately for his very fresh mouth.. Fred where are the pictures of the girls on your posts..Yuk, I don't get the 'I Hate You' stuff - my son said stuff like that when losing it from time to time when a bit younger, but the girls don't have the sophistication yet to know that they can hurt us with their words. They'll mainly just yell, NO! or, "I'm ANGRY AT YOU" or "STOP IT!" over the top of what we're saying to them, or just just yell/cry in an attempt to overpower our voices.
I took the pictures off of my profile because I decided that I was going to go for a bit more anonymity.
[QUOTE=fred]captain hard-ass routine [/QUOTE] We call it that TOO!
Fred, praise her when she IS doing the right thing. It's very hard to do. When they comply, we don't pay attention. When they don't comply, they have our FULL attention. So, next time you give her direction with something - i.e. "Abbie, put that down, it's time to eat." If she complies immediately - give tons of praise (over the top). "Wow, Abbie, thanks for listening to me. I love when you do that. It makes me very proud." Also, lavish this praise on Evie as well. If she sees Evie getting attention for her good behavior she may want to do the same.
hehe :)
Actually, now that I think about it, we do get the occasional, "I don't LIKE YOU!" and once Evie told me to "Leave this house and go sleep in another house I don't like you!" - so I guess they do have enough sohpistication to say things that they believe will hurt our feelings. You know you're an autism parent when angry, emotional, hurtful utterances are viewed as positive developmental progress!
Oops -Thanks Mamajot...meant to add that part in there too...I praised Payne so much yesterday for having a good day...finally I said...are tired of me saying how proud I am of you...he said ... yea...I said Ok then. You're my pumpkin and I am proud of your good job and I love you. He said, I know.
MJ - Evie is hysterical. She's like such a goody two shoes at the moment - she's just the apple of my eye :) She hasn't had any sort of behavior problem in about a week and has been totally ingratiating.
She did wet her bed two night ago, though (she's never done that)! Again, another example of when you know you're an autism parent:
She came down stairs nekkid and told me that she couldn't find any underwear. I told her I'd go upstairs and get her some. She tried to stop me from going upstairs and started getting agitated, but when I insisted (knowing something was wrong at this point), she asked, "Will you not get mad about something?" - I told her I wouldn't, so she relented - so, I go upstairs to find this big puddle in the middle of her bed! Not good, but I was happy that she had imagined my reaction to what I was about to find and tried to stop me from finding it (you know, our kids aren't supposed to be able to anticipate our reactions due to lack of 'theory of mind') - she has never wet her bed before, but somehow she intuited that I'd be angry about it and she also realized that she knew that I DIDN'T know about it at that time (another T.O.M. thing are kids are supposed to not be able to do), etc.
So, peeing all over the bed is a good thing, sometimes. Big mess though
I'm afraid they still vie for attention, but now instead of each getting louder they just try to out do each other with outrageous statements.
There really is something special about their friendship though, it's always been there and it's as strong as ever. Even now, they will start talking to each other, and completely forget there are other people in the room (friends, boyfriends doesn't matter), and be back in their own little world.
My dh is retired military and we travelled a lot, and the girls often had to start school in yet another part of the country. What really helped them make the transition easily was that they were twins, other kids were always fascinated and wanted to be around them. They don't always like the attention, both of them are shy and would rather be left alone. Even if no one else was around to hangout with it never mattered much to them, they always seemed happier with each other.
Oops, you've got me reminiscing, it also helps that my wonderful daughter's are off to college for another year. No more hair on the bathroom floor for 3 months.
My dd, turned 5 in July, is doing this as well. I mainly use time out but sometimes I yell. I dont want to but for crying out loud I dont know how to get her to understand she is out of line. Sometimes she can care less about sitting in time out.
I think this is a normal phase for all kids. I have seen it in my sisters kids, the neighbors...random kids at the mall...
Its frusterating and I hate "fighting" her over the little things...like brushing her teeth or going to bed but I cant let her behave this way either. Its just hard because I am not sure she is "getting" that she is being rude. It started right around her birthday and it has not been any easier... It will pass though and I am just waiting it out.
Fred,
just wanted to say I have 19 yr old NT twin daughters, and I swear they still behave like your daughters, just different subject matter involved.
At 19 it's piercings, tattoos, and boyfriends. We especially don't want them to get tattoos, so one of them came up with ideas for tattoos her dad would have a hard time saying no to. One was "daddy's girl", and the other was a tribute to her brother Zachary.
One will be a major defiant pain, and the other takes complete advantage to look like an angel, especially for "daddy". Of course, they also get in these moods where they complete gang up on me and drive me nuts. They're either the best of friends or at each others throats.
You've got lots to look forward to with twin girls, never a dull moment.
Anthony's famous words to me are "Are you going to be angry?" He lies and tries to get out of trouble all the time. He hides things, etc. He definitely has TOM.
There is obviously stages of TOM. I mean, how much TOM does a 2 year old have? It's development like other things. I wonder if there's a way to measure the stages of the development of TOM?
When we were talking about it over the weekend with his pyscholgist she gave him a little "test". She told him that someone in the room had a birthday coming up soon and he should find out who. So he proceeded to ask us all when our birthdays were until he found out that the case manager's birthday was soon. The psychologist then asked what he thought she might like for her birthday. He said pants, a shirt and shoes. We all started laughing because he clearly knows what women want LOL. Anyhoo, the psycholgist said that was great because he didn't say she wanted a skateboard (which is what he wants).
Ha! smith - yes, this is going to be a long journey, I am sure. When your twins were little, did they vie for your attention, talk over each other, escalte in volume trying to get you to pay attention to them.
Mj - That's a good one!. FOr my birthday, Evie wanted to get me a cup of coffee with chocolate in it :) - not a build-a-bear workshop animal! I guess our kids are doing well with TOM. Obviously, it's developmental, and can be delayed or advanced, just like anything else. Also, I know adults who will start talking about things out of context and you have to stop them and tell them to back up and fill you in on some basic details! It might have something to do with lack of attention or self absorbtion, too - who knows? It's clear, though, that our kids can imagine what other people are thinking or imagine what they will be thinking should they learn some secret knowledge.
Fred,
All of this (defiance, not wanting you to see the puddle on the bed) sounds all so 5 year old NT to me. We have went through this with both boys. We swear by 123 magic (used to use with a visual prompt but it eventually became unnecessary) and I am a hard ass on the defiance and crappy behavior too!
Abigails in this phase where she's yelling at adults, interrupting us when we're admonishing her for one thing or another, talking over us if we try to explain something to her, just basically acting like a complete brat. This is sort of out of the blue. She's always been overly emotional, but the defiance is new. In the meantime, Evie is playing the little Angel - she sees the trouble her sister is getting into and is really hamming it up, bringing us gifts, offering hugs, reminding us that she's not making poor choices, etc. Kind of funny.
Anyways, any tips on how do you deal with defiant behavior in an almost five year old? We've just kind of gone into smack down mode and been putting her in timeout after timeout. I seems to be making a dent, but it's a process.
Also, is this a typical 5.0 year old phase or is this probably ASD related?
They're starting school next week, and it might not be good if she acts this way with her new teachers.
She's testing you and your routine for discipline Fred. We had to do the same thing w/ Payne. Constant timeouts. We wouldn't acknowledge him yelling or saying anything...point to the chair. Set the timer. When the timer goes off (usually a cpl of minutes) he can get up, but if he gets up before it gets reset. You NEED TO BE VERY CONSISTENT right now.Thanks Payne's Mom. We're lucky in that she respects time out. She gets that she actually needs to stop yelling and wising off for us to even start the timer, and then if she makes a peep while in timeout, the timer gets reset (to five minutes). The thing that we're doing wrong is getting angry at her outbursts - she's getting a rise out of us! Thanks for reminding me about the importance of remaining emotionally detached!
One thing that's hard is that we traditionally have given a warning before timeout. However, if we try to give her a warning, she'll usually 'talk over' our warning, so lately, it's been more or less - go to timeout, no warning!
I wonder why she started this? I guess this is testing that typical kids do, too? I remember my son going through a similar phase but much younger.
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