bipolar and aspergers need help | Autism PDD
My son has both bipolar and aspergers. Does anyone on here have a child with this mix? I feel lost not having anyone to talk to about my son and this. Since I can never tell is it a bipolar behavior or an aspie one. I am so confused about his meds now that he has both dx's. I cant seem to reel in his behavior lately either. He is mouthy and nasty and rude and when you say something to him he starts with the why did i have to be born, i shouldnt be here why did you even have me you dont want me behavior. I will tell him over and over not to do something and then when I yell at him for still not listening to me I get the all you ever do is yell at me, why was i even born thing all over again and he is truely emotional and weepy during these.
I know I havent been on the board much lately. I just moved and in the move my pc was damaged and I had to send it out to get repaired and my moms pc didnt have this site saved and I am bad at remembering site addy's.
Lisa
Mason is dx'd with autism, and I guess unofficially dx'd with bipolar. His psychiatrist has recommended several books to me about bipolar in young children and the more I read, the more I see Mason. She just hasn't come out and said yes 100% he is bipolar...maybe because he is still so young.
We have been playing around with meds for quite a few months now and though we see a little improvement here or there, we haven't gotten "good" control yet. It can be so frustrating...I hate seeing Mason so angry at everything! And sad all the time. It breaks my heart.
If you ever want to talk you can PM me anytime...Mason is a few years younger than your son, but I'm sure we still have a lot in common.
Take care.
Payne is bipolar and autistic - not asperger's though.I believe there is a physiologic connection between the two -- the part of the brain which produces one neurotransmitter is involved in both conditions.
My Donny (same age and name as your boy - coincidence!) is bipolar and
autistic. That mix is really challenging, as the
treatments (both behavioural and medication) for the two disorders are
different...
If you ever want to talk, you can PM me
What mood stabilizer do you have him on??
We are using zyprexa...what is everyone else using?
We tried depakote (which he still uses as a seizure control, just lower levels than when it was a mood stabilizer.) and geodon.
We have Payne on Lamictal for partial complex seizures AND mood stabilization- I brought up to his dr about Geodon and he would NOT put Payne on it. He said it was too risky in comparison to Lamictal. He takes 200 mg in a day (3 doses)We have discussed lamictal for Mason's seizures because we aren't getting as good control with the depakote as we used to. I kind of thought (well hoped) with having him on 2 meds, even though one is for seizures, one is for mood, that we would kind of get better control. Guess it doesn't work like that.
How long did it take you to get the lamictal to the right dosage...our neuro says it can take several months. How long has he been on it? Does it seem to be helping both the seizures and the mood?
He started on Trileptal (which is also mood stabilizer/anti convulsant) at 2 years old, switched to Lamictal at 3 years old...so he's been on it and seizure free for 4 years. It took us weaning him off trileptal and on to lamictal about a month and a half to get off of one and fully on the other with good results...mood wise. He hasn't had a single seizure since switching...we do annual appt to the ped neurologist (he has migraines as well - probably caused by the sensitivity to light/sounds) My MIL is Bi-polar, actually all the women on my hubby's side are bi-polar. If the environment is in haromeny with the child and he has an out burst ... it's his bipolar. Anxiety 1 min and depressed/quiet the next min. That is bio-polar. Good observation watching my asberger/pdd family growing up and having kids with it. Then watching my hubby's bi-polar family. Big difference. Get out the bipolar check sheet and the autism check sheet. When an out burst happens write it down. Go back to sheets and look. When your emotions are involved it's hard to see things clear.http://www.autismtoday.com/articles/Autism_and_Childhood_Bip olar.htm
http://bipolarworld.net/Phelps/ph_2003/ph966.htm
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_narcissism_misdiagnosed_as_bipo lar_disorder_or_autism
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=139220
Anecdotal evidence is piling up that Geodon can aggravate, or even induce mania in bipolar, especially when combined with an antidepressant or the more antidepressing of the mood stabilizers like lithium or Lamictal, so use with caution in bipolar where mania is a problem.
at crazymeds website.
That's great...we were on trileptal and carbatrol in the past for seizures...honestly don't remember having problems with moods when he was on these, at least not like it is now...had to switch to depakote because his seizures changed and when he was put on the depakote we saw an immediate change in behavior. Always thought it was the depakote doing it, until the neuro explained that it could have been the other meds might have been controlling the mood.
I wish we could go back to the carbatrol (that was his best time, mood and learning wise) problem is, it can now cause him to have seizures. I think I am going to ask his neuro more about the lamictal--she has brought it up a couple of times, I think we were just waiting to be sure the depakote was failing. Mason just had another seizure on Sunday, after an increase 2 weeks ago...I'm thinking it's failing.
It is so difficult for me as a mom to see this, I can only imagine how hard it is on our little guys!
--sorry phone rang and I missed a couple of posts--regarding the geodon that Mason was on...it was a very short period like 3 weeks and we ended up seeing increased behaviors...we played with the dose just a few times and then she pulled him off it, saying it wasn't working.
He is on seroquel he takes 150mg am and 250mg pm. we have tried risperdal zyprexa and abilify.
With as many outburst as he has it would be impossible to write them all down. I did try to do this but could never really figure out what they were. Where it was an emotional thing from him being overwhelmed or from the change in a schedual. Its ever harder when its a mix of both bipolar kind of outburst and aspie outburst at the same time.
I am just lost as to how about to discipline him. nothing seems to work, not taking away privledges to taking away his toys or playstation or pc. No matter what you do he is distraught over it
Lisa
will write more about it later
I dont want to use depakote or lithium because of the long term side effects. I have researched the meds long term side effects and some are down right scary.
Lisa
Don is on Depakote (no epilepsy, on it strictly for the mood stabilizingeffect), Risperdal (to treat tics, mania, psychosis associated with mania,
and aggression), Seroquel (to treat mania, psychosis associated with
mania, and OCD behaviour), and Paxil (for anxiety and OCD), along with
fish oil. We're in the midst of
cutting back his Paxil from 5 mg twice a day, to just 5mg once a day.
Reason being that his psychiatrist thinks the Paxil may be driving cycling.
Don's current medication regime works pretty well. He still cycles: about
every two weeks, like clockwork, we have a short (3-5 day) manic cycle
followed immediately by a short (2-7 day) depressive cycle, before he
levels out for another two weeks. However, his cycles are much less
intense. However, psych thinks that eliminating Paxil might also
decrease the frequency of his cycling.
What I'm seeing this morning from cutting back Paxil (this is day 2) is
euphoria after taking his morning dose. He's giggly, to the point of
hysterics really. Flopping around, laughing, singing, shouting "woohoo!",
and then that super-manic giggle he does (we call it his Spongebob
laugh). However, there's none of the negative behaviours we usually see
with mania. Mind you, morning is his best time anyway...We'll see how
his daycamp goes today
Last night we saw ticcing, which we hadn't
seen in months...Payne was on seroquel and we went through THE SAME THING ... no respect for authority either...to the nth degree. Nothing would scare him and his mood swings...lord! He needs a mood stabilizer...I'm tellin' ya. If he's on one - it needs adjusted or switched. He will become depressed soon if not already. I've been there being bipolar and OCD myself.
That's great...our psych recently added ritalin (our 2nd time trying this) and again it didn't work...he gets so much worse when on this...she thought it might help again, now that we are seeing a little more stability in him...NOPE!
I am definitely going to talk to neuro about lamictal--I know I can't rely on what works for you will work for me, but I should at least try.
Thanks for all your help!!
--and sorry for hijacking your thread panickedmomof2--but hopefully some of what we are talking about will help!
Anyway, this is so difficult--like you said panickedmom--I never know if its something related to autism, seizures, bipolar!
I know I have to be patient and work until I find what's right...I just wish this process could go faster...I think about all the lost learning opportunites for him...it breaks my heart!
We see his pdoc on the 19th. I have seen more depressive moods than manic for a long time now. I so know to well all about bipolar as I am too along with borderline personality disorder. So as you can tell your house can be a mix of an emotional rollercoaster hour by hour.I hear you about the lost learning. He is behind in school and with this new aspie dx's I am hoping the school will step up now and help him more. He is already behind in reading, spelling, comprehension, math and god only knows what else. I just wish they would help him more. I so hope they will NOW help with the social issues that they have seen at school and I have seen at home. I just wish things would change now, we have be at this for 3 years now with the bipolar and just started to add in the aspie part since he was just recently dx'ed.
Lisa
ANY Stimulants set Payne off - that includes Coke so when out he gets lemonade/Sprite/Root Beer - absolutely NO TEA! Any caffeine. Chocolate milkshakes...nope. We have Payne on Clonidine to help with the impulsivity from ADHD but we know it doesn't do the same thing, but the kids simply can't take ritalin/focalin/adderall/etc even at the LOWEST dose. It was AWFUL! Mood cycling, disrespectfulness, aggression, irritability...omg - the stories I could tell. With the lamictal start slow and easy - is all I'm saying. Watch him all over for a rash - don't change any products for clothes/shampoo/etc...that way you'll know he's not having a reaction to something new in the environment. I currently take lamictal myself so I know about that med. Dont know if gatorade has caffine in it as that is the only thing he will drink and i dont know what else i could get him to drink if he couldnt drink that.I took Lamictal for a long time myself - did cause me to have a more drooly feel though.http://www.energyfiend.com/the-caffeine-database/
wow those things have so much caffeine in them. and WOW look at Jolt. thanks
It makes Payne go ballistic when he gets a couple swigs of one of those. We buy caffeine free stuff for him so he can have a 'coke' too. I am concerned about this recent increase in autism and bi-polar. We have had several boys in our program over the last few years that had the autism diagnosis and then had bi-polar added (appropriately added). I talked with several people in ourprogram (including a dev. psych and psyciatrist) and it seems to be a quickly growing subtype of kids on the spectrum. We are considering creating a program specifically to address the needs of these kiddos.
Will definetly talk to his pdoc about maybe changing meds up. I just dont know what to do with him anymore. I just feel like i am failing him.
Lisa
Amberwaves-
You mentioned "bio-polar" is this different from BP? Can you please explain? Thanks.
My son has talked like this before too. We added prozac to his risperdal and it worked great. Ask you Doctor if it could be a sign of depression. My son did this when he was about 8years old, that was also the same time he was realizing he was different from the other kids in his school. We tried mood stabilizers and they did not work for our son, but Risperdal helped with the agression and eating issues, it made it possible for us to work with him on these issues and the Prozac helped with severe anxiety and depression. My son is 12 with Aspger's syndrome, Learning disibilities.My son was dx'd bipolar at 5y. Added HFA at 6y and dropped BP at 7y. The BP meds never really worked for us. The risperdal did and still does. Jacob has been on Prozac, Celexa, Depakote, Tenex, Tegretol, Lithium, Adderall, Risperdal, Strattera. I think thats it. Most of it was trialed between 5-6yo. When we got the HFA dx---I took him off of all meds. He was on risperdal, tegretol, and lithium. That combo seemed to work the best---but not wonderful. He had to go back on risperdal within 3 mo. Then I wanted something for his impulsiveness. Strattera worked for him. After being on only risperdal and strattera and he was a changed kid!! Never in his life had I seen him this way! Since that combo worked so well for him---he got the bp dx dropped.
I still think at times---he may get dx'd again with it. I'm sure I'll know for sure at puberty!
What symptoms do your children have that are bipolar and not ASD? That is the hardest thing for me to figure out...I guess in Mason's case I just have to say his wicked mood swings...I mean they just fly...and with all of our searching we can't seem to find many triggers. He also gets a lot like what panickedmom said...and I hate using this term but it's the only thing I can think of--but this evilness to him...days where he is just out to hurt, torture, drive you completely crazy and seems to have absolutely no remorse for it...nothing I do can stop it...that can sometimes go on for a few days, and then he seems to calm down some and then we are on to the crying and the frustration and anger. It can remind me of autism traits, but at the same time it always seems with autism there is some sort of underlying cause...with Mason it is so so hard to find those causes. Does this sound typical for bipolar or does it sound more ASD to you? We haven't officially been dx'd bipolar. My oldest son is bipolar and nonverbal learning disorder which is kind of like a mild form of aspergers. I highly, highly recommend you go out and get the books The Explosive Child and also The Bipolar Child. If your son is not in therapy yet, get him in therapy ASAP!!! It is crucial for children with bipolar to learn how to manage their illness and their emotions, and also to identify what is happening with their moods (eventually anyway as they get older). I wish, wish, wish I had known what was going on with my son when he was younger in his elementary year and been able to have him in therapy then before he was more set in his ways
Allen is currently taking Lamictal as a mood stabilizer/antidepressant, topamax also for mood stabilization, and Geodon to target his mania. He suffers from mixed states. HE will be absolutely fine for a period of 2-3 weeks and everything will be dreamy (as far as anger, agression and moods..... we're not talking about the NVLD stuff here) and then the sh*t will hit the fan and we will be in h*ll for as long as 6 weeks. Since we figured out it was mixed states he was experiencing and he started the Geodon the intensity of his cycling has calmed down alot, now we are just working on finding the right dosage. He also takes Hydroxyzine at night which is basically prescription strength Benadryl to help him sleep (I didn't want him on antipsychotic meds for that) in addition to melatonin, and I give him EFA's with a 7:1 of EPA/DHA to help stablize his moods also. We just started this recently and I'm hoping after a while we will be able to back off of some of his meds. With Allen it is very, very obvious which of his behaviors are from his mood disorder and which ones are from his NVLD. Maybe it is because he is older and I have been dealing with this for a while....or maybe it is just because bipolar behaviors are so extreme that once you've researched it they're really hard to mistake for something else
I charted his moods for months and months. He had definite cycles, thru-out the day. Lots of mixed states. I guess the thing that said BP to me was the violence, no remorse, and the "possessed" eyes. He's not like that anymore. He is less violent, has remorse---after he is done with his tantrum---but has never said "sorry" on his own(language delay), Maybe once--I saw the possessed eyes in the past year. Maybe it's the risperdal and strattera. But I don't think there are too many BP'ers that can take strattera without a good mood stab. My sister is just now seeking a dx of bipolar/schitzophrenia (thinks she has both). Ive aaaalways known something was extremely different with her but didnt know what? Shes 21 now and shes suffering bad and right now shes in her manic and seems very happy (which Im glad for, I think?) But anyways, we were talking about different people in our families who have disorders like that and she said she thinks my husband could have bipolar! I shouldnt really be surprised if he did have it i guess since his father and grandmother both have it. I was almost 100% sure my husband has an ASD but maybe he has both. Hes always gotten depressed majorly here and there for no reason and is veeery impulsive and have mood swings but not as pronounced as my sister and definately none of the hallucinations. Altho he has told me of him levitating years ago and also flying another time, but im a believer in the supernatural, but maybe that was a hallucination? Im worried about my son tho (and of course my husband!) but after reading this thread, I didnt know they coexist often together. Can someone give me a checklist or something for bipolar/asd in children? Im probably just being paranoid (i hope) but weve always joked that my son was schitzophrenic and he does have mood swings very often and lots of anger frustration (altho some times more than others) but hes also a happy kid too. Hes also very anxious and paranoid of everything. Maybe theres more I dont really know about bipolar too much. Maybe im just being too paranoid but my husbands dad, grandmother, my grandmother, my sister, and a couple of my aunts all have bipolar. Also schitzophrenia, tourrettes syndrome, and depression run on my side of the family as well in a good amount of each. Sorry I know my post is all over the place!
ASD, as the behaviours are pretty much the same. What makes one
bipolar is the fact that it's occuring cyclically.
With Don, it was very clear when he developed bipolar disorder. Until he
was 8 1/2 -9 or so, Donny was classically autistic, with PTSD/attachment
issues. Then, things changed. Suddenly, seemingly overnight, he was a
different child. Crying all the time, emotional, withdrawn, self-injurious.
Just really not himself. I thought he was depressed, the psych said it was
anxiety, and prescribed Paxil. It helped at first. Then he started having
manic episodes. They were really clearly manic episodes - initially for
3-5 days in a row about once a month, he'd be hyper, stimmy, huge OCD
behaviour, pacing, not sleeping, ravenous - stealing food and binge
eating, and so on. He'd literally sit and pick at himself, the couch
whatever, bouncing up and down, saying one word or making one noise
over and over and over and over - I once counted him saying the same
word 100 times in a 20 minute stretch.
I kept telling the psych I suspected Bipolar, she kept dismissing it as
anxiety and ADHD and increasing the Paxil. Meanwhile, these manic
episodes became longer, more frequent, more intense. Delusions,
hallucinations, and aggression started creeping into them. Less than six
months after the obvious manic episodes started, we started seeing the
depressive episodes, although it took us much longer to realize that's
what they were. A depressive episode always follows a manic one with
Donny, and is characterized most clearly by his sleeping during the
morning/day.
Don wasn't formally diagnosed as Bipolar until last February, just before
his 10th birthday, around a year and a half after symptoms first
appeared.
Now, after just over 6 months living with the diagnosis, we have a pretty
good understanding of what is ASD issues and what is bipolar issues.
FWIW, Mason's behaviour does sound like it could be Bipolar-related. The
aggressive, conflict seeking behaviour is common in mania, and the fact
that it is typically followed by the crying, frustration, etc., which could be
his expression of depression...bio-polar" is this different from BP? it's the same word.
Just be on the look out as they grow into teens. I know everyone who has bio-polar is a different person. My MIL (who didn't raise my hubby) She has a spiral life from one addiction to another. Yes drug use as a teen and 30's, sex addiction, shoping addiction. The 80's were a total blur for her. My MIL mood swings, she can have 5 in 20 mins. or less
.
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