I think it's great you are seeing Dr. Greenspan & will have your concerns
discussed. Keep us posted. If *you* have valid reasons for thinking he is
on the spectrum, explore that. Family & friends are not autism experts,
and most will say "no, he's fine" even if a child really has some red flags.
[QUOTE=bullet]
But the interaction is very much on his own terms. He'll
wave their hands about, move their chin up and down, poke their faces or
play with their hair. It's not typical social behaviour for a four year old.
[/QUOTE]
Our dd is not very social. But, once she does get involved w/ someone,
she does this same thing. The psych said it's like she uses people as a
tool versus to share in an experience together. I'm sure she said
something much smarter than that...but I can't remember it!!
"Once when he learned what breasts were he pointed out to his babysitter that she had breasts. So there might be a case made for him not understanding appropriate communication. He did this when he was 3 y 3m."
This is very normal for his age. I honestly don't know at this stage if your ds is on the spectrum, it may be that you have to wait a bit longer to know. I will tell you that it is perfectly possible to have a few signs and not be on the spectrum. For example my dh as a child had a very strong interest in Star Wars, watching the videos over and over. He is not on the spectrum. My mum has (or had, she says she is more social now) extreme shyness. She is not on the spectrum. My dad concentrates on small details, appears to be rather set in his ways and is rather reserved. He is not on the spectrum. It is the culmination of things and the way they impact that determines whether somebody is on the spectrum.
bullet39311.7211574074Gifted children can be very quirky. My older dd is gifted, and has some
"aspie" & ADD traits (she does have issues w/ anxiety & OCD). You could
be picking up on those quirks in your son. Google "gifted children" & you
can read up on this stuff. A child can also be gifted & have a learning
disability.
The smelling & light switch things sounds more like sensory than
obsession per se. My dd does both, she could be a bloodhound!! My dd
does have some obsessions--a recent one was Barbie 12 Dancing
Princesses. She wanted to watch the movie ALL the time, & often by
herself. Screaming if sister would be in room. She literally could watch it
6 x a day. It's ALL she would watch. In the bookstore, all she wanted was
these books. She lived in a tutu for weeks on end. She started saying
lines from movie. She would step on tiles, just like the characters in the
movie do. She rec'd the doll for her bday, & it didn't leave her side for
days on end. Everything revolved around this movie. Tantrums came if
we tried to redirect her. This was one of her first obsessions, a reason
her psych feels she may get dx w/ aspergers down the road.
Here's something I found recently from O.A.S.I.S., an article written by
Stephen Bauer, M.D., M.P.H.
Asperger Syndrome:
The preschool child:
As has been noted, there is no single, uniform presenting picture of
Asperger syndrome in the first 3-4 years. The early picture may be
difficult to distinguish from more typical autism, suggesting that when
evaluating any young child with autism and apparently normal
intelligence, the possibility should be entertained that he/she may
eventually have a picture more compatible with an Asperger diagnosis.
Other children may have early language delays with rapid "catch-up"
between the ages of three and five years. Finally, some of these children,
particularly the brightest ones, may have no evidence of early
developmental delay except, perhaps, some motor clumsiness. In almost
all cases, however, if one looks closely at the child between the age of
about three and five years, clues to the diagnosis can be found, and in
most cases a comprehensive evaluation at that age can at least point to a
diagnosis along the PDD/autism spectrum. Although these children may
seem to relate quite normally within the family setting, problems are
often seen when they enter a preschool setting. These may include: a
tendency to avoid spontaneous social interactions or to show very weak
skills in interactions, problems sustaining simple conversations or a
tendency to be perseverative or repetitive when conversing, odd verbal
responses, preference for a set routine and difficulty with transitions,
difficulty regulating social/emotional responses with anger, aggression,
or excessive anxiety, hyperactivity, appearing to be "in one's own little
world", and the tendency to overfocus on particular objects or subjects.
Certainly, this list is much like the early symptom list in autism or PDD.
Compared to those children, however, the child with AS is more likely to
show some social interest in adults and other children, will have less
abnormal language and conversational speech and may not be as
obviously "different" from other children. Areas of particularly strong
skills may be present, such as letter or number recognition, rote
memorization of various facts, etc.
Sunflowers....I have a nephew that we suspect is Aspergers but never diagnosed. He is also Profoundly gifted..
IF your son needs therapy then get him therapy. IF the doctors cant' figure it out then he just IS what he IS you know? I truly believe that there are just people out there that are borderline. Encourage any healthy obsessions. If he has sensory and he's not in OT then get some OT. If your still worried then find a place like a local university that does evaluations with a team of docs instead of just one. From what you have posted about your son since you joined and with how young he is...I truly feel that he is going to be fine. If he's gifted he might be quirky, the same if he is on the spectrum..lol Either way I think from what you have posted that he will do great.
Karrie
Sunflowers: I think we started posting on this board around the same time. I too have concerns about my ds having a form of PDD/ASD. I don't post a lot here unless I have an extreme situation and I don't have a diagnosis for him other than SPD.
I am going to start a new thread because I started typing my response to you and was detailing my ds issues and I don't want to hi-jack your thread with all my details. I do want to say that I feel I am in the same boat as you and I'm not quite sure how to deal with it either. Right now, I think time, a watchful eye, some documentation and maybe some OT (in my ds case) would be helpul. Could you please read my post and tell me if my ds sounds like yours? You sound so thorough in how you have handled it all. I truly can relate to ds being in the gray area, my sweet guy is too.
I agree with Tzoya regarding observing other children. I think I do need someone to give me a final answer. I'm so tired of waffling back and forth on this issue.
To answer everyone's questions (and thank you for asking them to help me)..
He is fine with us socially. When we do pretend play he assumes the role or characters just fine, acts them out fine, has good gestures, animation, and is able to take it further and further with help from us. He doesn't usually touch strangers or people he does not know well, especially not adults. But once in gym class he was sitting next to a child in a group and was trying to get his attention and didn't know how to, so he put his hand on his leg and started saying something to him. The other child took his hand and moved it off of his leg. Once when he learned what breasts were he pointed out to his babysitter that she had breasts. So there might be a case made for him not understanding appropriate communication. He did this when he was 3 y 3m. He only talks to strangers if they ask him questions first. He watches other kids at the park and playareas and if they are doing something that interests him he might make a comment about what they are doing. He knows not to snatch toys from other kids and knows if a toy is near another child that it belongs to that child and he has to ask first if he's done with it.
The reason I felt he was ASD is primarily because of his obsessions. There have been many in the past 1.5 years. I'm confused because I've been told they could be sensory related and not ASD. He loves the wind of the fan he says, he loves the scent of soaps and candles. His sense of smell is so strong that he can detect a scented candle from down the hallway in an office. I have caught him turning the light on and off on some toys and in some rooms of our house. This turning the lightswitch off and on lasts about 10 seconds at most though and it may happen three times a week or once in two weeks - it varies.
He is not yet actually interacting with other kids beyond making a comment or two about what they might be doing. Once at playgroup a child pulled his hand to come play with him and he joked that he couldn't because his feet were glued to the floor. But he isn't actually playing with ease with them as he always does with us. He seems a little intimidated of them.
His verbal skills are very advanced. His IQ was tested to be very high. But then my MIL who is a teacher of gifted children tells me that gifted kids sometimes do have underdeveloped social skills.
It may be that I'm starting to rely on what family members are telling me. I'm just feeling worn and torn through this dx process.
Dr. Greenspan dislikes labels it seems. But I have such a need to know what my son has. If its just a regulatory disorder, then that's fine. If it's ASD, fine, but I need to know now...
Thank you all for your insight and words of wisdom. Tzoya I will take him to McDonalds ball pit to observe him there.
Bullet, there are a couple of quirky and extremely shy people in our family on both sides. My husband was terribly shy, had only 1 or 2 friends when he was very young. My brother is a bit quirky, gravitates towards engineering and math. Relatives on both sides of the family suffer from anxiety. I have anxiety.
My son could be a combination of all these factors and other factors we don't know runs in our families. That's what makes this all so hard.
I am confident that Greenspan will be able to answer our questions though. He seems so knowledgeable in this field.
After one year, I'm ashamed to admit that I'm still in denial to some degree at least.
We've seen countless people and not one thinks he is ASD. We keep hearing the same thing - he's too sociable, he makes good eye contact, he's too articulate, etc...
I was sure he was ASD last year. I read as much as I could in the past year. I even started doing floortime at home daily with him, put him in OT (he was dx with sensory issues). I put him in speech therapy for just a couple of months and this seemed to correct his low muscle problem around his mouth.
But with everyone telling us he's not ASD, I'm beginning to wonder myself.
But he DOES have one or two outstanding things which make me feel he might be PDD and they are obsessions. He occasionally flaps his hands but he does that when he's ovely excited or has to go to the bathroom. I've seen him at the park when he's chasing me or my husband and he runs with good coordination and arms alternating and swinging at his sides like he's supposed to.
I guess I keep going back and forth now. My son learned to ride his trike at 2.5 - does this show good coordination? He was potty trained by 2.5 also and it only took him 3 days. I was reading how Kajoli described her son on trips and my son embraces newness and the excitement of trips too. He embraces going to new places. He started speaking at 17 m - single words. But the double words came at 21 m. After 21m there was a language explosion. But then when he did say two words, it wasn't "want juice" or something like that. It was "pooh bear" or "pooh binky." Not sure if that's relevant. And my son has had obsessions since 14 months. He still does not actively play with other kids. He will sometimes peer over to see what they are doing, shows interest in their activities, and once in a while make a comment to them but not actually play with them.
Can a child just have obsessions and not be ASD? Would this still qualify for PDD.
Sorry for this rambling, I'm just so confused now.
We have an appt with Dr. Greenspan to I hope this mystery will soon be put to rest.http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/aspergers_syndrome/42320 http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/autism.index.htm
What is Asperger's Syndrome? Asperger Syndrome (AS) is a severe developmental disorder characterized
by major difficulties in social interaction, and restricted and unusual patterns
of interest and behavior. There are many similarities with autism without mental
retardation (or "Higher Functioning Autism"). (see Resources:
Asperger's Syndrome; information & support).
What
Can You Tell Me About Asperger Syndrome?. Asperger syndrome (AS) is a neurobiological
disorder, which most researchers feel falls at the "high end" of the
autistic spectrum. Individuals with Asperger syndrome can have symptoms ranging
from mild to severe. While sharing many of the same characteristics as Pervasive
Developmental Disorder, Not Otherwise Specified and High-Functioning Autism, Asperger
syndrome is a relatively new term in the United States, having only recently being
officially recognized as a diagnosis by the medical community.
Pervasive
Developmental Disorder (PDD) and Pervasive Development Disorder Not Otherwise
Specified (PDD-NOS)
The
diagnostic category of pervasive developmental disorders (PDD) refers to a group
of disorders characterized by delays in the development of socialization and communication
skills. Parents may note symptoms as early as infancy, although the typical age
of onset is before 3 years of age. Symptoms may include problems with using and
understanding language; difficulty relating to people, objects, and events; unusual
play with toys and other objects; difficulty with changes in routine or familiar
surroundings, and repetitive body movements or behavior patterns. (source)
With him being social, how is he social? When Tom was seeing the school's paediatrician (his nursery is attached to a school and there's a paediatician who goes in regularly to check up on the children) they commented on how friendly he seemed. Well, he is. With anybody. He will approach total strangers and climb on their laps. But the interaction is very much on his own terms. He'll wave their hands about, move their chin up and down, poke their faces or play with their hair. It's not typical social behaviour for a four year old.
In The Child with Special Needs - Dr Greenspan refers to regulatory disorders - which are different than ASD
But confused or not - you are in a great place becasue you have yourself covered with meeting one of the best there is in the field
Ftime is great for ALL kids ASD /PDD or not
If you are having douibts what it probably means is , that if your son is on the spectrum he is very mildly affected so that is great
And really Greenspan reminds us again and again that its what the child needs not the label that is of importance which looks like you are already doing
You mentioned my son on trips and embracing newness and that was like your son - well R does that at the same time which is not an ASD trait but he has other HUGE red flags - no speech being a big one !!Your son if he is on the spectrum certainly sounds much less affected than R
I have a question. What makes your think your son IS on the spectrum? I don't mean from having listened to friends and family. They don't know. I mean from knowing him well and understanding what other kids his age are like. There must have been a reason you sought help. What was it? Lots of kids on the spectrum do well in lots of areas. The problem is, they can't seem to make those skills "work" for them in life. If your son's development is clearly not like the development of other kids his age, it does not matter what you call it. He needs intervention of some sort. The best thing to do is to get the best evaluations you can and go from there. If you wonder about whether or not your son is "normal," there is an excellent way to find out. Take him regularly to play in a McDonald's ball pit. Watch his interaction with the other kids. Watch their interaction with him. Listen to their language. Listen to his. Watch what other parents do in their interactions with their own children. Observe how much they participate in getting their kids to join in -- or how much they don't have to. The "yardstick" is McDonald's, the playground, birthday parties, etc. Unstructured, age-appropriate activities. You can gauge your own child's growth VERY well in these environments. Through observation, if you find that your child is exactly like the other kids (not less mature, not more mature), he may not be on the spectrum at all. If you find he's either more or less advanced and not exactly on target for his age, worry. Advancement beyond his years is no more a good sign than delays are. Kids have to go through ALL the developmental stages to learn normally. I've always found the real world the best measurement of all. Don't fool yourself by shying away from that.
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