another kindergarten question | Autism PDD
Payne has been going to school since he was 3 - he started kindergarten at 5. I started kindergarten when I just turned 5 - graduated at 17 too. I think it depends on where you live...in the south (at least in NC - where I grew up) they start at 5. A lot of people here will wait if their child has a birthday that falls from August-December. I notice it more with boys.
fred - I think that is something that varies by area. In our area, about 80-85% of boys are held if they have a summer birthday. That is ALL boys. Girls - well, a lot of them are sent regardless of summer birthdays. I have no doubt I will send my dd and I would even if she had a summer birthday (hers is May). I would send her now if I could!
But can you ask the school? They may not give you a good answer though. I asked our old school district and they said that it does no good to hold kids out a year. I completely disagree! Especially with my ds and having special needs. By holding him, he is bigger than a lot of the kids and I am guessing won't be picked on (as much!) because looks bigger and older. And, he matured SO much this last year. But, we've had this discussion before - so I won't bore you to tears again!
From my personal experience as I got older it sucked, lol...I was the last to get everything from my license to turning 18 to getting to go out and drink, lol. And not only did I have to wait longer...I had to wait ALLLLLLLLL summer long...that is a lifetime to a child/teenager. But it didn't hinder my education at all. I was right where I was supposed to be academic wise.
I think a lot of parents of even NT children wait until the child is 6 just bcuz that is there personal beleif...bcuz they feel the child is more emotionally ready for it.
From our autism perspective, I personally wanted Mason to do another year of kindergarten, but the school wouldn't let me. I just thought behaviorally and emotionally he seems to fit in better with 5 year olds than 6-7 year olds...and although Mason's bday isn't that late in the school year it is still in March so that is almost the whole 1st grade of him being 6. He just doesn't seem ready for 1st grade IMHO. I'm sure I could fight it, but not sure if I should.
My DH was 4 when he started Kindergarten. He did not turn 5 until the end of October. He said it was very difficult for him to be the youngest student in his class and he wishes his mother had waited until the following year to start him in school.
I know several kids with August birthdays. My oldest son has a late July birthday. For all of these kids, the first several years of school seemed more stressful for the parents than the kids. Between 2nd and 3rd grade, being the youngest didn't seem to matter so much.
Oh! I should add that a lot of parents are holding their kids now because of No Child Left Behind and how much more kids are expected to learn in kindergarten. In our old area, they were expected to be able to write their first and last names, to know all the letters and sounds they made, how to count to 50 (identifying all those numbers as well), etc. BEFORE they went to kindergarten. If your child came in not knowing how to do that stuff - well, they were behind already!
My ds was nowhere near writing his first and last name at the beginning of last year. We are very close to that now - and the new school district isn't QUITE as high-maintenance as the old one.
I would also try asking parents in your area who have kids in the schools as to what the general practice is. Maybe you've already done that?
my son has been going to school since 3 and he will be 5 1/2 when he starts kindy...
In Texas, I think there is a cut-off based on where the birthday falls, but I think parents are also given the option to hold back a year, based on readiness...? not quite sure about that, good question...
I know I turned 5 late August, and I started at 5, and graduated at 17 as well (like Payne's mom)...of course, that was back when the school year was shorter and didn't start till Sept really...I'm old...
when I met with the school admins, they indicated that he needed another year before kindy, so maybe contact the school, discuss with them based on your concerns...
I totally agree with them with respect to my son, he is no where near ready for kindy...as one of the posts indicates, the bar has been raised as far as what they are required to know when entering kindergarten, and heaven knows we don't want to put them in a situation where they are already behind, they have enough other stuff to deal with....
One more thing
But, with girls you also have to consider that if you hold them, they will be hitting puberty before other kids and that may cause issues. Our kids often hit puberty before others anyway - so this is something to consider.
Sarah could of went when she turned 5 on 7/27 but she wasnt ready yet. We started her at 6 last year and it was a good decision for us:) No one paid one bit attn. to the fact she was already 6 because most were turning 6 all year long:) If they are ready mentally and pretty mature than let them:) I was so afraid of letting her be there all day without me and the fact she spoke next to nothing at 5 years old so we waited:) Waiting one year made a huge difference in here and she was not only ready but excited to go:) Good luck!What do you think is the usual age for kids to start kindergarten? I noticed a lot of you are sending your kids to kindergarten at well after they have turned five, some even six years old.
Is this typical amongst parents of NT kids, too - to hold kids who would be very young at the start of the year out for a year?
The girls will be turning five the same week kindergarten starts and they will be in a regular class. On top of being special needs, will they also be in with a bunch of kids who are six months to a year older than them (which is a lot of development time for kids that age, esp. special needs ones)? Or will their be a fair share of just-turning-five year old kids there, too?
I don't mind the topic going off-topic - I just felt bad because I thought that I had made knuckle-duster feel bad because with my 'superficial conversation' video - I don't mind the direction this thread is taking!
Bullet, the girls never really had an echolalaic phase. Ironically, my son did, but it was when he was very young and it came and went within months (and it was immediate echolalia).
The girls do a bit of 'scripting' - in that they have these stock phrases that they use over and over again - always in the right context, but the effect is that they can come across as overly descriptive at times. The phrases are things that they've come up with, though - not things they've heard and they tend to be short phrases rather than long, elaborate phrases.
Like I've mentioned, the girls main communication defecit has always been that they don't really speak 'with' people but 'at' them and don't respond in a typical way to their conversation partners. Up until some time after four, too, they only used their language to have their wants and needs met or to make observations about things in the environment. I'd say that most of their communication is still instrumental, but it's improving gradually.
LeanneC, you have nothing to apologise for, it was a very reassuring post.
Fred (I keep thinking of Doctor Who with your name by the way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r9YLW0dwW0
BTW - I stumbed across this girl because of her art. If you're interested, take a look at these great pictures that she makes (reminds me of the girls a bit - I hope that they're this good when they're nine):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGUKWsAWUcw
nene, you are SO right about the typical K-er's - they AREN'T all particularly deep and conversational, and all that good stuff.Our girls are now age 5 & 6, and a 10 yr old son.
The 6 yr old just wrapped up her K year, and is G & T in art and literacy. We knew she could express herself artistically in ways that WE can't even do (and we're OLD, now). To me, she's the typical little pink princess "it's all about me and my clothes" chatty, etc girl! And all her friends are the SAME.
The 4th grader is going into 5th, and he's G&T in science actually, he wants to be an entomologist -
and these 2 kids being G & T is what I heard the principal telling the director of special education...
she said "Big brother and big sister are both G & T, so there's no telling what this little one has inside her"...and while that's true, I felt a little weird about it. Anyone relate? Like she was saying "let's agree not to put little one in life skills to appease mom and dad, because she might have rainman syndrome" Know what I mean???
(I actually have spent a god-awful amount of time at the school, in ALL my kids classes, but mostly PPCD/Pre-K, and K)
I can tell you that Kinder isn't ANYTHING like it used to be...these kids are reading, and I mean reading WELL by Christmas...it's just amazing. When I saw our 6 yr old do it, I knew the 5 yr old wasn't going to be able to get it that quick.
Since she's so young, we decided holding her back for maturity's sake and all would be a good thing right now.
Hey Fred...what I wouldn't give for her to tell me "mom, my ear hurts" BEFORE her eardrum bursts again...or "I'm hungry" or "I'm thirsty" or "an ant bit me" or "I like it when a butterfly crawls on me" or "I want to go to the museum"...you know what I mean?
Your little ladies do seem so ready, but only you and their mom will know for sure once they start...we're all rooting for each other, and prayers don't hurt, either!
Our little girl talks....and exhibits immediate and delayed echolalia, and I agree that it's a good stepping-stone. If nothing else but to react semi-correctly in the right situation - I'll take it!!!
We do love her for who and what she is, absolutely, but....the days are hard. And long. And I cry for her and how much I feel I neglect the other 2 because of her. I bet some of you can relate to that as well.
Fred, is it that bad at your house? Do you have the tantrums that last forever? Do your girls tell you or mom when they're hungry, thirsty, hurt, sick, etc? How about if they're scared? I'm really curious how much they are able to communicate to you? but boy oh boy, I wish I wish I wish LOL! *sigh* everyone hang in there.
[QUOTE=knuckle duster]
Fred, is it that bad at your house? Do you have the tantrums that last forever? Do your girls tell you or mom when they're hungry, thirsty, hurt, sick, etc? How about if they're scared? I'm really curious how much they are able to communicate to you? but boy oh boy, I wish I wish I wish LOL! *sigh* everyone hang in there.
[/QUOTE]
knuckle's, no it's not too bad anymore. It was hard for the first four years of so, but things became much easier once the recipricol communication came in. The girls can tell us what they want and let us know when they are upset (and why), so we don't have the endless, inexplicable tantrums anymore. They are still more sensitive and tempermental than typical children but it has gotten a lot easier over the years, for sure.
[QUOTE=kristys]The key question I have for you is, if you didn't send them to kindergarden, what would you do with them? I looked at the video of your girls again, and they seem ready to me. Have you ever spent a block of time in a kindergarten classrom, as a volunteer? (Don't feel bad if you haven't, I work too and only could do it twice for each kid this year and dh never did it.) When I was there I observed a very broad range of skills and abilities in all areas: communication, social, academics, etc. and I know how old the kids are since every kid in the class invited every other kid to their birthday parties. From what I saw, there wasn't a very strong correlation in performance between the older kids in the class and the younger kids in the class. The only broad generalization I can make is the girls were all way ahead of the boys in everything!
[/QUOTE]
Kristy, if I were to hold the girls out of kindergarten I would instead send them to a private, typical pre-k and continue with private language, occupational, and physical therapy and tutoring.
I have not spent any time in a kindergarten classroom. I know a couple of kids the girls age, though. One of the boys is a little chatter box and you can talk with him much like you can talk with an older child - just normal conversation. The other little girls is very shy and doesn't say much, but she still has much more fluid language then the girls.
The thing I don't get is why do parents of typical boys with summer birthdays hold them out of kindergarten? I wonder what their reasons are. It's hard for me to imagine a typically developing child not being ready at 5.0 (considering that most think that the girls are ready), but you're right - I don't spend much time around kids this age.
Fred I think your girls are going to do AWESOMELY at kindergarten. They seem high functioning now, are they? How are things going with that? Is one 'higher ' than the other?
Yes, they are considered "high functioning", though that wasn't always clear - on their assessments, at 4.0, the psychologist wrote that they seem high functioning, but... and then wrote several concerns with their ability to communicate.
Evie has always tested higher than Abbie on cognative tests (higher IQ, higher scores on language assessments and such), she draws a bit better, started reading a few months before her sister, etc. However, Abbie has mostly caught up to Evie with language and is more socially outgoing and is also physically stronger (less noticable gross motor delays) and is better at puzzles and games and such - so it's kind of a mixed bag.
Bullet....
Adam was echolalic when until he was almost 4..He started having some functional one word demands at 2 though and he started calling me mommy at about 3.5 At that age it was about half and half. Still echolalia but up to 2 word phrases that were functional. HE also used echolalia to his advantage like if we asked him if he wanted loops for breakfast he would repeat "Loops." in a matter of fact tone that we KNEW was different than typical echolalia. He would change the way "Loops" sounded to mean that YES he wanted them. he still does video scripting ALOT. He does have complete functional language now and seems to video script for pleasure or stimming or what ever it is....LOL HE also at some point started using phrases he got from tv to communicate with us.
I think the fact that he has echolalia is a good thing. I think he will eventually start to use this and it can become functional.
Fred...I think what you were talking about earlier is Rote (don't know if spelling is right there but you know what I mean) phases or whatever when you talk about what the girls use to communicate certain things.
Karrie
Fred Wrote:
"The thing I don't get is why do parents of typical boys with summer birthdays hold them out of kindergarten? I wonder what their reasons are. It's hard for me to imagine a typically developing child not being ready at 5.0 (considering that most think that the girls are ready), but you're right - I don't spend much time around kids this age."
They worry that they are not mature enough or that they are not academically ready. My SIL and neighbor both considered holding their boys (August B-Days) for these reasons. Both boys were in a lower reading group in Kindergarten and needed some help. However, by the end of first grade they were in one of the top reading groups.
One of our therapists told me she knows some parents who held their sons to give them an edge in team sports. They wanted their boys to be the biggest in their class. I'm sure that's not what they mentioned to the school administrators, but that was their reasoning.
Here we just want our kids to be able to effectively communicate and be as independent as possible. Go figure!
Does your school have a "transitional 1" class? It is a class between Kindergarten and 1st grade for kids who, in kindergarten, showed a need to catch up a bit in their maturity or ability to follow directions or communication, etc. Its a nice safety net.
As long as your daughters are part of the special education program, I would not sweat kindergarten for them at age 5! Are you saying they are doing full time inclusion? If that's where they start out, fine. It can be adjusted down if need be in a month or so. Then bumped back up.
They can also "audit" kindergarten this year, and really enroll in it next year. Cole has a September 2 birthday, but his due date was December 5. When he turned 5, I had him in PEI (preschool early intervention) but had him "audit" kindergarten 4 hours per day. We agreed to adjust his auditing time according to how he did. All was well until February when they started addition, subtraction, coins, and clocks. Had to bump him back to 2 hours.
Just keep close tabs on how they are doing daily. By November, you may just be blown away with how well they do!
Listen, maybe you don't have a lot of access to many special needs kids and are just the world's best parent, but I have to say this to you. Your daughters are sooooooooo at the top of the spectrum compared to the kids you are going to meet, that you are probably going to laugh at these concerns of yours in hindsight.
I am not minimizing your daughters' needs or your appropriateness in worrying about them. Truly, I am not. But at least in this months's old video, they are top of the heap. I've been room mom at my son's school for two years now and have dozens of hours of access to NT kids that are Cole's age (kindergarten now going into first). The supposedly NT kids are very much like your girls as they acted in the video. I have also been around children of myriad disabilities for 7 years while we went and did OT at the therapy center, then school. I know this population of children well.
You often subtly hint that your DW doesn't fret enough over your girls' condition. Fred, being a friend here, once you are around more kids the girls' age, you may just start thinking your wife wasn't so off base. I mean no disrespect by writing this, but just to honestly comfort you about your childrens'outlook. They look great!
I truly *think* (not that it matters what I think ;o) that your girls are ready. They'll be ahead of some, behind others, may or may not do everything that everyone else (whatever that means) does, but if nothing else, start into it expecting them to do as much as they can, and then prune it back if they need less. Know what I mean?
They're so high functioning (and I hate using that term because it's still what it is, and it ain't goin' away tomorrow!) that it makes sense to go all the way in, and see what they can do.
IMHO, you all are going to do great!
YEAH, fred (not to gang up on you, LOL) -- THEY ARE READING!!!
Seriously, they will do GREAT! I am envious.
I am another person whose SD would NOT let us retain T in Kg! So it's kind of like you have one shot at it. AND they did not do readiness screening or maybe thye would have told us to give her an extra year? So ... I think it would have hugely benefitted her to do two years in Kg, or to have had more academics in a Pre-K year or Jr. Kg or whatever. I ended up feeling as if I had thrown her to the wolves!!!
All that said, fred, I think you are being FRED. Your girls are MUCH MORE ready than T -- and FWIW, she DID after all survive it. They will be fine, I KNOW IT, and you just get over those cold feet of yours!
In England (and I think Wales, but don't quote me on that), children can start school when they're four. Some counties say that any child who will be 4 in September can start school then. Others, like the county I'm in, divide the year up, so that children born up to a certain point stat in September and children born after a certain point start a little later, eg January. You can delay putting your child in school until they're 5, or you can home educate.Good lord fred...LOL after watching that video...They will do fine in kindergarden if it is communication that your worried about. I would imagine that if tested that they may not even qualify for speech...at least not in my sons school district.lol (a punt toward my son's school) Abbie's language is beyond Adam's with the way she is so spontanious and interupting you...Gosh that was cute. Evie reminds me of Adam's language in this video.
This is all good stuff...I think we all worry as good parents should but I look at your girls and yes I can see the ASD but I have a child on the spectrum...I would imagine that to most people they are indistinguishable.
JMHO
Karrie
Here in Oregon, we don't have a choice, if the child has their 5th birthday after first day of school, they have to wait until following year to start kindergarten. Our oldest 2 have birthdays on the 3rd and 15th of September so they had to wait until they were 6 before they could start kindergarten. Our asd ds turned 5 in July so he is just now going into kindergarten. I was the most frustrated with our dd turning 5, 2 days after school started. But like I said we had no choice, even though she was emotionally ready and eager for school
Snoop, I don't know if you've seen these videos, but here's a "conversation" with the girls - this is a few months old - they were four years, nine months here, and they've made some progress (specifically, asking more questions and showing more interest, in general), but this is still a fair approximation of the conversation skills and what I'd consider to be 'superficial' conversation (Abbie's doing most of the talking, here - Evie's into her lollipop):
http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/batfish00/?action=vi ew¤t=museum-1.flvI know most turning five year olds talk a lot better than this, never mind six year olds. They are language delayed, after all. Of course, one of the reasons for sending them to regular class is so that they experience all the good language, but I'm, of course, ambivalent.
I'm worried about these things too. My dd is going into kindergarten in another week. I went against the them wanting to put her in a cluster and am going to put her in a regular kindergarten class with a full time aide. The school that she will attending in the fall is also the school she went to for the voluntary pre-K program. I really wanted to transition her to this school over the summer because she had been at her previous school for 2 years and I knew it would be a hard adjustment. It was. But we made it through. There were a couple of times I kept her home for a few days at a time because it was very stressful for her and the teachers (none were ESE and there were no aides over the summer). She did alot of regressing but she stopped that behavior eventually and did make progress but it was tough. It's just too bad that most of the kids will be going to different schools especially one girl who took my dd under her wing and was very good to her. I gave her a little goodie bag filled with trinkets to show her appreciation. I also had a ton of fast food toys unopened so I gave them out to all the kids (which actually helped me declutter) and it paid off the next day because we ran into one of the kids at the Y.I guess this summer was my sneak peek into fall. However I did accomplish getting her adjusted to her new school (which is an arts magnet). She keeps asking to go back to school and she only has 2 weeks off. I just always try to think positive because she is capable of more than she's willing to do.
Also, since she does read her behavior and social skills are really what I'm most concerned with. Her summer improvements were in language (although she's still far behind it was big for her), in drawing (not just "abstract" but realistic, also able to color inside the lines) and her handwriting.
I can really see why you are hesitant about kindergarten. I have heard alot about people just holding their kids back a year or having them repeat for social not academic reasons. You really have to go with your gut on these matters sometimes. The schools wanted to hold my older daughter back after kindergarten and have her go to this pre-1st grade class that was a new fad or something. We said no way and my dd did great (socially always, academically when she had to) . She ended up going to Japan for a year as an exchange student. BTW the recommendation to hold her back came from a teacher who at the end of the school year still could not call my dd by the right name.
Wish you and the girls the best of luck.
I need to just say something about one of the posts. As a parent, you cannot necessarily hold your child back a year in kindergarten. In our former school district, the parent had no power to do so and the school district was VERY reluctant to do this. It does a number on the child's self-esteem to know they "flunked" kindergarten (which is not, obviously, how you would put it - but they would eventually figure that out!).
fred, I have more than superficial conversations with my ds who just turned 6, but will be going into kindergarten. Frankly, I am having superficial conversations with my just turned 3 year old girl. She is very advanced for her age though. As a former teacher at Head Start, I think most kids going into kindergarten can have more than superficial conversations. Of course, maybe my definition of superficial is different than yours...
Also, some school districts do what's called "junior kindergarten" for those kids who aren't quite ready for regular kindergarten. You have to have some kind of delays/deficits in order to qualify. There are some private schools who offer this, but I have heard of school districts who offer it as well. Sometimes it is funded by a grant and there are limited openings. I would guess you would already know about it if there was such a thing in your area - but it doesn't hurt to check!
Here's my thing - my ds was academically ready last year to go to kindergarten. His ECSE teacher was FURIOUS with me for not sending him as she was convinced he would be bored. We decided to send him to Head Start - so it was a new program for him and more academically (and socially) rigorous. He went 4 mornings a week for 3 1/2 hours. And 2 afternoons a week to ECSE (different teacher as the previous one moved - thankfully!). Best thing we ever did. Ds was NOT bored - he could also benefit socially from helping others learn how to do the things he already knew how to! He also learned a TON of social things and by about March he said to me, "Mama, I'm ready for kindergarten!" And I thought so too by then! I think it can be a myth about them getting bored if you focus a LOT on social skills. Because that is significant learning for them and hard to do.
Okay, off my soapbox....
Fred:My ds 5th birthday was 7/24. We decided to hold him from kindergarten so
he could go to a typical preschool with an aide who will be phased out
throughout the year. Academically there's no concern, but he still has
trouble with language pragmatics. However, he will initiate conversations
with other kids and ask them to play with him.
The biggest reason, though, is due to his rigidness in a couple of areas. We
didn't want the pressure of trying to break him of these habits by
September.
Fred - I don't mean to increase your anxiety level by any means, but I
personally do feel your concerns are valid. There is a big difference
between a newly turned 5 year old and a 6 year old. In my neck of the
woods, there are parents who hold back their summer birthday (primarily
boys) by a year to give them a chance to catch up maturity-wise. In most
instances the girls are fine, although I can think of a few girls in my kids
NT pre-school last year with summer birthdays who would probably
benefit from being held back.
In all honesty, if my kids had summer birthdays I would have probably
held them back a year. They're early December birthdays, so will be
starting Kindergarten at age 5 3/4's, which I think is o.k. I just think that
by holding a summer birthday kid back a year who's already behind, you
help to narrow the gap for them socially and emotionally.
I'm not suggesting you do so with your girls, however, if you end up
going the Kindergarten route with them this year, I would keep REAL
close tabs on how they rate against their peers, and start planting the
seed early with school administration if you believe a repeat of
Kindergarten may be necessary. We have an NT boy on our street
(summer birthday, started at age 5) who will be repeating Kindergarten
this year because he had such a rough time of it and all agreed it's best to
nip things in the bud now rather than pushing him through and waiting
until the wheels really start to fall off.
In Illinois you have to be 5 before September 1. Anthony won't be 5 until a couple weeks after September 1 so he has another year of pre-school.
I'm very happy that he has another year to develop emotionally and socially. Although, I am concerned because he can count to 100 and recognize those numbers as well. He knows his months of the year, days of the week etc. He has mastered these skills in ABA so I have some concern about him being too far ahead by the time kindergarten rolls around in the fall of 2008 and then being a behavior problem because he's bored.
But, I have posted about all of this before and I am beating a dead horse.
I need to convince myself that I am always going to worry about making the right choices for him. I agonize over some of them. I second guess myself all the time. I just ordered worth of books from Amazon - and it's probably stuff I already read in some form or another but I can't stop myself.
I need a beer. You go for your run Fred - I'm drinking after the kids go to bed tonight!
The girl's birthday is at the end of August, so they'll be about as young as you can get for kindy. Anthony is already at least as skilled socially and with language as the girls, and he gets another year to bake, while the girls will be thrown in this fall. I'm suddenly intrigued by this 'junior kindergarten' concept - I'm assuming that's just a private option.Fred is it their language why you are worried that they may not be ready?
If this is the case then please don't worry. I have a niece who had a language impairment and in kindergarden you couldn't even understand what she was saying and we weren't too sure exactly what she understood but she excelled. Apparently you don't have to have great language to do well in school. lol
SHe had speech until she was 9 or 10. You wouldn't be able to tell now that she had such a rough start...although there is a hint of a really northern accent without ever living up north..lol
Karrie
Yes, it's mostly language, but reading about all of these kids who are already more skilled socially and with language than the girls being a full year older when they start kindergarten has gotten me worried again. I'm worried that they're going to be in with a bunch of kids who are not only more mature, but significantly older chronologically, too. I mean, there's a big difference between even an NT 5.0 and 6.0 year old!Fred...my older son (although not DX'd, but had traits) went to private kindergarten when he was 4 (turned 5 in November). Obviously, he was the youngest. I purposely sent him for social experience. He excelled in academics that first year which was great for his self esteem. He had no problems with other children. I held him back and he repeated the grade as I thought he was not socially ready to move on. These two things were the best decisions I could have ever made for him.
I truly believe your daughters will do well in the kindergarten atmosphere. If for some reason, they are having problems or you think they are too immature to move on, you can always hold them back.
I don't think the girls are "ready", but the school system thinks they are. Mom thinks they are. Academically, I'd say they're good to go (though they can't count to fifty and I doubt they could recognize any number over 20) - but they can read/decode at about an end-of-kindergarten level (where typical kids are supposed to be at the end of kindergarten, I think) and can copy/draw pretty well.
I can't believe that kindergarten is teaching academics these days. In my day, kindergarten was for teaching kids how to behave in a classroom, follow instructions, learn their ABCs, etc - not learn to read and do math for crying out loud!
I don't think their language is sufficient to have "conversations" with the other kids but I do think it is sufficient for engaging in imaginary play, sharing, manners, following teacher instructions, etc.
Is there a range of verbal ability amongst typical just-turning-five year olds or are all kids, by 5.0, very fluent with their language to the point where they can have "normal" conversations with each other? Our SLP says that the girls are within (low) normal range with their language syntax and grammer and such and the rest is social - but they still can't have a typical, long conversation like I can with my son (who is 2.5 years older than they are, but I think I remember having conversations with him at this age that were more than superficial). The only NT girl I know the girl's age rarely talks, so I can't really evaluate how well her language is (she's very shy). You guys have seen the girls speaking in videos - you've seen how they can have a basic conversation, but that's with me pulling them along.
EDITED TO ADD - But we've had this conversation before - I guess I don't need to again - sorry - becoming FREAKED! Need to go for a run :)
Snoop, I don't know if you've seen these videos, but here's a "conversation" with the girls - this is a few months old - they were four years, nine months here, and they've made some progress (specifically, asking more questions and showing more interest, in general), but this is still a fair approximation of the conversation skills and what I'd consider to be 'superficial' conversation (Abbie's doing most of the talking, here - Evie's into her lollipop):
http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/batfish00/?action=vi ew¤t=museum-1.flvI know most turning five year olds talk a lot better than this, never mind six year olds. They are language delayed, after all. Of course, one of the reasons for sending them to regular class is so that they experience all the good language, but I'm, of course, ambivalent.
[/QUOTE]First post here, but reading posts for years.
I had to add something when I read this.
My little girl, 5 yrs old in mid May, has been in PPCD (pre-school program for children with disabilities) for 1/5 yrs. At age 5, she's aged out.
She was supposed to start K this fall. Small school district, small budget, K not an option - she's not ready, can talk but essentially non-verbal - you know, the important stuff like "what's your name" etc.
They wanted to put her in life skills to which I said NO WAY. She's not severely disabled, and considered high-functioning asd.
But I gotta tell you, after seeing your little girls talk to you, I'm SO jealous. Sorry. I just am. Been a tough a** summer here. God what I wouldn't give for my little girl to talk to me like yours do. crap, I'm sorry for even saying it, and don't mean a bit of malice or rudeness, please please understand that.
But damn...if I had what you have....
Have to add that mine would NEVER have expressed imagination, or finding words to remember what she'd liked or done before (mentioning the butterfly landing and crawling around on her) etc...never happens here...you had a wonderful conversation with your little girls as far as I'm concerned. It looked pretty typical of what you might get out of a 4-5 yr old. I could understand every word they said. AND I totally understood that she was talking about a towel she saw on the porch or whatever...sheesh! LOL!
After visiting Sarah many times in her reg. kindy class last year I didnt notice a lot of back and forth conversation..most of the lingo is "look at me".." I can do this" or " I got a new puppy" .."I got a fish" ....all attention communication so we taught Sarah to "brag" a little to fit in more and how to comment when others are talking about themselves...some kids in her class never talked much at all~really shy..and some were very immature, whiny and noncompliant...even a few cry baby types that made Sarah look like a model child:) They keep your kids so busy with structured activities that there is not much time for social..even lunch is somewhat structured with no much talking allowed. Some of the kids have slow speech, or stutter..I dont remember Sarah sticking out and she only talked when spoken too...no one seemed to notice as far as her peers..the teachers loved her! Try not to worry:)
Hi folks, this got a little off track - I know that the girl's language is developing nicely and I didn't mean to make anyone feel bad by posting that video (it was in response to Snoop, who wanted to know what I meant by "superficial conversation") - in any case, this thread was started because I noticed that many of you were holding your kids back and sending them to kindergarten when they were well past five, even six years old, and I was wondering if that was a common thing for parents of typical kids to do, too. Since the girls will be turning five the same week they start kindergarten, my concern was that they would be in class with kids up to a year older than them, and given their developmental delays, I was worried about that.
Just wanted to clarify - I wasn't trying to fish for compliments or make anyone feel bad - it was just a concern, probably a concern that parents of typical kids have too in this situation (where your child will be the youngest in the class).
Fred,
Yes, we got off track, but it's a been an interesting discusion! And of course you didn't mean to make anyone feel bad by posting the video - so keep posting videos - please!!! I think we all get a little wistful when we see another child doing something our child can't do. Whenever any of us posts a video or talks of our children's great success and progress, it makes some people feel sad that their child isn't there yet and it makes other people feel hopeful that there is light at the end of the tunnel. We're all in different places. Please don't feel bad.
The key question I have for you is, if you didn't send them to kindergarden, what would you do with them? I looked at the video of your girls again, and they seem ready to me. Have you ever spent a block of time in a kindergarten classrom, as a volunteer? (Don't feel bad if you haven't, I work too and only could do it twice for each kid this year and dh never did it.) When I was there I observed a very broad range of skills and abilities in all areas: communication, social, academics, etc. and I know how old the kids are since every kid in the class invited every other kid to their birthday parties. From what I saw, there wasn't a very strong correlation in performance between the older kids in the class and the younger kids in the class. The only broad generalization I can make is the girls were all way ahead of the boys in everything!
Fred. My son is in the public school system in Ontario, where JK and SK are standard. We also have the option of a half day everyday program or a full-day alternating day program. I prefer the half-day everyday, especially for our kids. Although we may be losing the option of half-day due to smaller class size (less than 22 per class) and greater enrollment ( we are in the middle of a population boom in our area.) as well as buget restrictions.Hey Fred,
yeah, you're right, and I guess it happens easily online (getting a lil' off track, that is!). :o)
Your little ladies are developing wonderful speech skills, and I'm seriously so jealous.
When the last ARD we had decided our little one should go to life skills since there wasn't anything "in between" already in existence, I already knew I would say NO WAY.
She's modeling a lot, just barely starting to mature and use expressive language (and I do mean barely), and it just seemed really wrong to put her in with the kids grades K-4th with severe physical and mental disabilities.
But law says she can't enroll in PPCD or Pre-K now that's she's 5. And a young 5.
So we suggested to the school to find something more appropriate, because we also have a little girl in K AND a 4th grader, and we would NEVER allow our K girl to attend class with our 4th grader.
That being pointed out to them seemed to make a huge difference.
So to fulfill legal requirements and all that *blah blah* stuff - they're enrolling her in K, and resourcing her out to PPCD (transitioning her to pre-k during the year as she can handle it).
We suggested holding her back a year to allow her a much needed year to mature and develop. Every little tiny bit will help tremendously. It's not going to make a bit of difference to anyone if she's just turned 6 when she officially starts K, when all her classmates will be turning 6 from day 1 to the end of the school year.
I say give them every chance possible to develop and grow and learn, and throw in a LOT OF PRAYERS & LOVE!!!
In terms of straightforward talking, they don't appear to have any real difficulties, so I suppose what you're looking at is the things they can talk about, how they express themselves and how they interact with others. The school will notice if they're having difficulties and hopefully be able to work some strageties to help them if they need it.
I hope you don't mind me asking a question, but I know you say your girls were severely delayed when they were 3. Tom is just gone 4 and his language is very atypical and his understanding of spoken language very limited. Here's a couple of examples:
Understanding: Yesterday, I took Tom and Jacob to see some monkeys. On of the monkeys was sitting down.
Me: "Tom, see that monkey?" (I position him slightly to see the one I'm talking about. "What's the monkey doing?"
Tom doesn't answer. I try a different tack:
"What's the monkey doing? The monkey is ..."
Tom: "Monkey!"
Me: "It's a monkey. What's the monkey doing? Is he eating?"
Tom: "Eating!"
Me: "The monkey is sitting down. The monkey is ... "
Tom: "Sitting down."
Next set of monkeys we see are having a playfight. When asked what they're doing Tom first responds with "sitting down" and then "monkeys!"
Difference in Language:
Me: "Tom, is mummy a girl or a boy?" (to be fair he can tell the difference between pictures of boys and girls now):
Tom: "Girls and boys come out to play, the moon doth shine as bright as day, leave your supper and leave your sleep and join your playfellows in the street. My name is Dave, how do you do? My hands can sign and yours can too."
So the question is, were your girls language and understanding like this?
You certainly haven't made me feel bad"Drink time is finished. It's time for outside play." However, if the weather is bad then they have to stay in, but Tom will be going around repeating the "drink time is finished, it's time for outside play". If someone coughs, he thinks that's part of the sentence and he'll cough as well. He'll reply to things based on one word he's heard and repeat things that appear to have no relevance. Eg if you say "come on, it's time for a nappy change" he'll reply with "come on, it's time to go home. Bus and Dave".
Sorry for pestering you.
well in Kindergarten, I don't blame you for being so freaked out. Jasper is
only 4 months younger than your girls, but because he has a January
birthday I get to wait until he is 5yrs 8mo to start K. I'm going to freak
out then about his readiness--I think it's natural for a parent of kids
with delays to worry, worry, worry.....
Your girls are so bright. I think the social enviornment in Kindergarten is
just what they need to help support their social growth. Even though it's
hard on us parents to see our kids having difficulties or painful
sometimes to compare their development with their NT peers---I think
being around peers and raising the bar on expectations is really helpful,
especially when our kids are younger. JMO. A nd E aren't going to have
any academic difficulties, so I think they can learn alot more from their
older peers than they can from the younger ones.
I do think you might be forgetting that there will be other kids in the
classroom whose speech is also delayed. Jasper goes to pre-school with
many kids who just have a speech/ language delay, no ASD. And they're
all going to Kindergarten in the same district next year with him. Other
kids will be behind academically. Some will have behavioral problems,
some will be painfully shy or be painfully uncoordinated---everyone goes
to kindergarten not just the perfectly developed kids in your imagination.
bullet, the girls have always had a problem engaging with their conversation partner - they would, like it seems like Tom is doing, make comments and utteraces that, while relevent to things that were happening at the time, weren't really directed towards a person, and needing to be prompted sometimes to make any statements at all.
At 3.0, Abigail was basically non-communicative. She could speak in phrases, but had a lot of jargoning and would not speak interactively with another person. Her language was limited to observations that she was making about things in the environment. If you tried to have a conversation with her, she would ignore you or possibly speak of things that had no relevence to the topic that you were trying to engage her on. Evie was a little better at that age in that she didn't have the jargon, but still had the same issue of not being able to engage with peopel.
At 4.0, though the jargon was gone and they were speaking in full, clear sentences, they couldn't have a conversational exchange at all - I remember on their IEP at the beginning of last year, one of their goals was to sustain a covnersation on topic through two turns. So, yes, they did talk a bit like that. They've also always had better expressive language than receptive - they could say much more than they could respond to, though when making their statements, again, it wasn't really as part of a flowing covnersation, just isolated statements about thigns in the environment and such.
This started getting better this year, and by the time they were 4.5, they could have an exchange, on topic, through a few turns. They're still very self directed with their conversation and will often ignore their covnersation partner's questions and statements, but it's getting much better.
Their biggest leap in language has been after they turned four until now, with the biggest leap happening right around 4.5, so hopefully this'll be a good year for Tom, too :)
Fred,
Here in IL, a child must be 5 by 9/1. In California it is 12/1. I know this because my nephew in CA has an Oct birthday and started kindy along with my boys, though if he'd lived in IL he wouldn't have been able to. It seems to vary greatly by state.
Many folks with Aug birthdays have some flexibility. As others have said, the vast majority of girls go regardless of when their birthdays are and most of the kids held back are boys.
You are in a tough spot, because while your girls are delayed in social & communication, they are ahead in academics. Given this, I would send them even if they are on the younger side. If they were not so ahead academically then I'd consider holding them back. However, since they have such great skills now I would worry that if you held them back, by this time next year they would be SO FAR ahead academically that they would be bored out of their little minds in kindergarten. The other kids would be struggling to trace letters and your girls would be writing books. Heck, they are already writing books. My NT son can't write half as well as your girls!
During C's last year of preschool I was really worried about C being able to start kindergarten. I was so worried that I might have to hold him back, and then have the boys in different grades. I was afraid of the lifelong social stigma of having them be twins but C a year behind. I could just hear other kids asking R "why is your brother a year behind, is he stupid or something?" This time last year I still wasn't sure he was ready and was as nervous as you are, but I went ahead with it with the attitude of we try it, and it isn't the end of the world if he has to repeat kindergarten.
Think of it this way, the girls are going to be little academic rock stars, so you won't have to worry about that entire part of school. You can just really focus on lots of playdates and lots of social activities. A big benefit of them being in kindergarten is they will get to meet the kids that they will go through school with and can start working on those friendships.
Best case - your worries are for naught. Worst case - they repeat kindergarten. If you didn't send them, what would you do with them?
"Did you realize that echolalia is a NORMAL step of language development for babies and toddlers? Your son just needs to do it for a bit longer."
Yes, I do realise it. But all the typically developing children I've known have had immediate echolalia rather than long streams of delayed echolalalia that have appeared to be spoken just to themselves. They will say "drink" after "do you want a drink?" for example, they won't suddenly start reciting scenes from tv programmes word for word, with the exact same intonation, seemingly to themselves. And they will also have some spontaneous speech, they will say "mummy, drink", or "Tom tired". Tom has never spoken how he feels about something, what he wants, what others are doing, he is verbal but has great difficulties with social communication. I am sure he is communicating, but it is in ways that make it difficult to know what he means a lot of the time. He's been communicating using delayed echolalia, sometimes with no apparent relevance, sometimes with some relevance since he was two, which actually made it easier to explain to others his difficulties with language than if he had been completely non verbal. If you have a child that can recite the story of the three little pigs, but not ask for a drink then you know there is something different about them. He has appalling pronunciation, most of his sentences come out as "ha haah aarrgh button moon da ba argghh mr spoon".
Please forgive me - I wasn't trying to say your son's echolalia is normally developing. I was trying to comfort you with the fact that it is a stepping stone - the same kind of stepping stone that ever child uses. Not precisely the same, but the same kind. It is a bridge to communicative language.
Norway mom has posted tons of links about this in another echolalia post.
Sometimes if you jump into this perseveration, you can gradually redirect it. I'm about to go tackle Cole and talk about Olie with him, then move it to something else. Gotta run...
Bullet, my son did a lot of immediate and delayed echolalia when he was 3 and 4, and I must say it is a GOOD thing. Cole is mostly past this, but will talk about movies as he wanders around the house still.
Your son knows he is supposed to converse and wants to say something, but the "correct" response is sitting on the tip of his tongue...or somewhere.
Sometimes language comes flying in so fast (from their perspective), that they can either be quiet and listen and think about what you said for several minutes and finally decode it (and you think they are on the planet Mars not even paying attention).
Or, they can spout off some sort of language immediately because they know you want them to speak back.
Did you realize that echolalia is a NORMAL step of language development for babies and toddlers? Your son just needs to do it for a bit longer.
I think this is like learning a foreign language for you and me. They have to replay your words in their head, try to translate, think of how they would respond, then translate their thoughts into words, THEN try to pronounce those suckers in Cantonese or something!
Echolalia is good practice, and I must say the length of his utterances (even if they are just immediately memorized and spouted back)show great memory and great recall. Sounds like his diction is good, yes?
He is may just make a really nice leap over the next couple years if he has this stuff going for him at age 4. WIll he be where Fred's little sweeties are right now? Maybe not - they have each other to practice with every day. My child is not there at their level!
Look, when Cole was around 4, we had him at the blood lab to do a bunch of tests. It took 4 adults squeezed into that tiny room to hold him still, he's crying, my husband is crying, complete chaos and Cole yells: PLEASE! Just let me die!
All the adults just cracked up laughing. This was delayed echolalia from the movie Homeward Bound (a dog yells this in the vet's office). Cole had said "let's go home, all finished, bye-bye, thank you and goodbye now, etc" and none of it worked. So he snagged a piece of echolalia that he thought fit. And it did!
We were at dinner the other night and I was teasing my husband about something and Cole puts his hand on me and says: My father was NOT a drunk! This is from Harry Potter & the Prisoner of Azkaban. Harry says it when someone is denigrating his deceased father. It was not an appropriate piece of echolalia, but he recognized that it was used to defend a beloved dad. Not bad!
Your son's echolalia is a good thing! Consider it a stepping stone, not his final destination.
They had a great article in the New York Times about redshirting your child for Kindergarten. And it was about NT kids. I was really on the fence about starting my son in Kindergarten. The school officials told me to start him because academically he's ready. But after talking to other parents the advice they gave me was once they're in the system the parents lose a lot of control such as wanting to hold them back, etc. So I decided to take my last opportunity to have control over the situation and he's going to start in 08. Your girls seem much more advanced than my son so I'm sure they'll do great. My son is more comfortable and fits in better with kids a year or two younger than him so I figured socially it would be better for him to be the oldest in the class.
Good luck.
Copyright Autism-PDD.net