trying to reconcile theories | Autism PDD

Heh, we had just bought our vaccuum cleaner a few months before he was born, and by the time we moved four months later, we had to throw it out...it sounded sickly and tired every time I turned it on!

For us, the only thing that worked was that dang vaccuum.  We bought white noise CD's, and those made him scream louder, if such a thing is possible.  I think Jase was autistic from birth, too, but we had no clue about autism, really, and the signs before he turned two were subtle enough to be overlooked by a mom overwhelmed by a house full of busy little boys.   After the initial screaming was over, he was very calm, etc., and I was so relieved that I missed stuff I like to think I otherwise would not have.

The whole reactive-attachment disorder vs. autism thing is pretty interesting, though.  It's odd how many different conditions have symptoms that overlap with autism.  No wonder it's so difficult to get a proper diagnosis...there seems to be so many things that could be going on besides autism!

It is interesting...and there are a lot of us out there that had preemies...we definitely didn't get that attachment in the beginning.

Mason too was a very difficult baby!  Just cried and cried and cried some more.  He was lucky in the fact that he only spent 2 weeks in the NICU, but I knew from the moment we brought him home, he wasn't like my older boys.  Unfortunately, I just didn't know what was wrong with him.

well, the way I look at it, autism isn't a thing in itself - its a description of symptoms that probably have a variety of underlying cause - so, in my view, a kid with reactive attachment disorder or whatever would still "have autism" - just in their case, the underlying cause is known while it is unknown in the majority of cases. foxl39303.3449074074I agree Fred!!!  But in our case it seems that most doctors don't agree...if they can find something else to blame the symptoms on they go that route and stay away from the autism dx.right - my lay definition of autism is "kid exhibits autistic symptoms and we don't know why".

I don't think there's enough study to determine whether of or how much genetics/personality plays in something like RAD.  It's quite possible that RAD symptomnology in infants or young children is a manifestation of later personality disorders that have not yet been dx'd.  How much of a factor nature plays to nurture and environmental assaults who knows.  I don't doubt that kids who experience severe neglect or abuse may have "nurture" attachment problems. 

I'm not saying anyone should ignore their kids.  But, many of the parents that support this RAD are adoptive parents trying to find the reason for the problems of a child that they haven't raised from birth from a developing country.  A child, who also may have genetic issues and/or have suffered a higher degree of environmental assaults from pollution and such. 

Also, if you consider the treatment of children for the past thousands of years, some raised in orphanages, slaves, neglected and sweat shop workers there are many who transcend the hardship and still look for bonds with peers.  The urge to bond outweighs the adversity.  It's only been until relatively recently that children have been valued for who they are.

Also many ethinicities pretty much think we're kooky for the amount of time we spend with our kids.

 Robert LeVine, for example, observed in a 2004 paper that among the Gusii people of Kenya, "mothers rarely looked at or spoke to their infants and toddlers, even when they were holding and breast-feeding them." (So much for the universality of peek-a-boo.) On Ifaluk Island, in the South Pacific, tribespeople believe that babies are "essentially brainless" before age 2, so there is no point in talking to them.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/07/15/l eave_those_kids_alone/?page=1

 

OZZIE-ROZIES-MA39303.3509259259

WOW -- Ozzie, those are some extreme views of parenting!

OTOH, the Maya of Guatemala carry their children CONSTANTLY -- akin to Sears' Attachment Parenting!

another nifty article ...

http://www.adoptionarticlesdirectory.com/Article/The-second- glance-at-institutional-autism-in-internationally-adopted-ch ildren/81

Don't feel bad, fred.  I've wondered the same thing about Jason from time to time, because he was a terribly difficult baby as well.  He had to be held constantly, or he screamed.  He was up all night unless we ran the vaccuum cleaner, so not much sleep for me!

We tried everything (he wasn't my first baby, and my eldest was pretty colicky, too, but nothing in this league) we knew, and talked to the pediatrician, who had us put him on Enfamil AR.  That helped the spitting up, but he still screamed almost constantly.  Car rides and vaccuum cleaners, plus constant holding and swaddling were the only things that would calm him.  Now, this didn't go on for as long as you and your wife dealt with, though he's been a horrible sleeper (waking up screaming very often in the middle of the night, up to six or seven a.m.), but I've wondered if he was traumatized by all of this.  I dealt with it largely on my own, since my DH was a restaurant manager then, and often worked 75 hours a week.  I never really lost my cool with Jase, though, so I am thankful.  I just seemed to know that something wasn't right, and so I managed to keep my perspective that way, but it sure wasn't easy.  I cried almost as much as he did, some nights!

All that said, from what I understand, a lot of ASD kids seem to be at two extremes as infants...very easy babies, or very colicky, "high needs" babies.  I think that might be due to whatever sensory issues they have as babies.  My son was clearly hypersensitive, and now, he's not quite so much.  Course, I'm not an expert, so this is just my take on it.

I wouldn't beat yourself up over it fred, truly! 

Thanks Evie, I tend to think that they were autistic from birth and that's why we reacted to them the way we did, rather than our reactions to them contributing to their delays.  We burned out a vaccuum cleaner motor ourselves.  We used to put a big industrial size fan near their bassinets as the sound seemed to sooth them.  We also had to double swaddle them at night, because the mere movement of their limbs sent them into hysterics.

Interesting article Linda,

it sounds like "instititional autism" or something like RAD is fairly rare.  If autism is 1:150 than the IA case would be 1:1200? 

 • There were 6 boys and 3 girls in the sample. Ages ranged from 3 years 4 months to 9 years 2 months.
• 6 children were from Romania, 1 from Hungary, 1 from Poland, 1 from Russia.
• In 8 out of 9 cases organic-based autism was confirmed. Two cases out of eight had Asperger’s Syndrome.
• Only one case was confirmed as institutional autism with the background of child’s depression, attachment issues, and severe fine-motor delays.

I wonder if children who are more likely predisposed to autism or AS like symptoms are given up to the orphanages because the parent has trouble connecting with them early. 

Kinda like viewing it from the alternative of the child isn't rebellious because of the innate strickness parent but the parent becomes stricter because of the innate rebelliousness of the child.

Here is one site that discusses it extensively ...

http://www.a4everfamily.org/index.php?option=com_content& ;task=view&id=182&Itemid=69

Radzebra is a great site for Reactive Attachment Disorders, and adopt-china.com I believe is a third.

Our SD autism coach recommended that we get a diff dx for RAD.  But my dd does NOT have the core symptoms of RAD -- ie indiscriminate affection or LACK of affection!  Her social problems are restricted to peer interactions.

For IA adopters there are MANY forums and websites -- as many as agencies, and then some.  Adoption.com is probably the largest.

I just wonder where "experts" draw the line, between RAD and autism, and how frequently kids get diagnosed with the wrong thing.  If I went to a RAD specialist I am betting they would see only the circumstances of her adoption, NOT of her birth, etc. and call it RAD.  If I go to an autism specialist, the reverse.  So ... I know  what GREENSPAN would say ... FLOORTIME!

I just wonder how many RAD kids are being treated for what is allegedly emotional trauma, and really they are autistic?  And vice versa?

Linda, honestly, and this is probably terrible to think, but sometimes I wonder if the girls actual suffer from some sort of attachment disorder and that's the underlying cause of their autism.  You have to understand how unbelievably difficult the first three months of life with the girls was.  These were not normal babies - unbelievable colic, both of them.

First of all, their mother had a horrible, allregic reaction to an epidural and spent the first few weeks covered in hives and crawling out of her skin.  The girls didn't sleep and screamed seeminly non-stop.  DW tried to breast feed them, but she couldn't get the hang of doing both at the same time, so she was up literally all night, every night, as each girl needed to be fed every two hours.  This went on for a month before she finally couldn't take any more and we went to bottles (so I could help out at night).  DW was made very depressed by all of this, we both spent the first several months of the girl's life in a kind of desperate 'survival' mode.  There was no joy - we actually enrolled my son in a day care so he could be out of the situation it was so bad.  I don;'t think there was much social bonding going on there, and I wonder if it somehow contributed to the problem.  I'm not blaming her, please don;t take it that way - it was real trauma and I was there to witness it - it was incredibly difficult - she was sick for months, depressed, and we had no help from family to get us through.  I would get called home from work nearly every day with DW in tears because she just didn't think she could handle it.  At one point, in all seriousness, she was considering putting one or both of them up for adoption.  This went on for over a year, and even as late as 2-3 years old, we were finding no joy in our lives, were chronically sleep deprived, etc.

Anyway, it could be that this horrible beginning of life contributed to their bonding which contributed to their delays or it could be the fact that they were autistic at birth and were so difficult that bonding with them was not possible - chicken - egg.  It's something that I try not to think about, but it's hard not to.

 

 

 

Hi Fox!  This is something I am extremely interested in but have only read minimal amounts of information.  So here are 1000 questions I have (heheh):

What are the percentages of orphans who have since been adopted that are DX with RAD?

When does RAD typically present itself in the child?

Why don't all orphans who are not enagaged during their first months end up presenting with RAD?

Is RAD DX'd more often in boys than girls?

What are the medical interventions for RAD?

What are the vaccine schedules for children overseas?

Are these vaccines similar to the UK and the USA or do they continue to  contain thimeresol?

I have heard a great deal about RAD in the last 10 years or so.  I would assume that this is due to the large number of children being adopted from overseas; however, was RAD an issue prior to the increase in adoptions?  Or did the RAD numbers increase within the same parameters as austism?

Thank you for bringing up this topic.  I never thought of the similarities.  Intersting theories are running through my feeble brain.... 

Linda,
Is there not a site for parents who adopted out of the country? I seem to
recall reading an article of such a site and a Mom who also had an ASD/
daughter. I just can not remember how I found it though.Is there a website that further describes attachment theory? Also, do you
mean ASD symptoms to be caused by postnatal trauma?

Okay, being part of the adoption community I also have read a great deal on Attachment theory and so on ... someone on an adoption site just posted an article by an attachment therapist, describing neurodevelopmental delays, and the part of the brain associated with various symptoms.  And of course many of those symptoms are AUTISTIC ones!

So I asked, how do you reconcile the decline of the Refrigerator Mother Theory, with all of these symptoms that are believed to be caused by POSTNATAL TRAUMA?

Nobody has answered yet ... but I am curious about who will respond to my question!  I think someone mentioned this before -- Reactive Attachment Disorder vs. Autism and the basis of them? 

Anyone got any comments here?  Clearly we do not want to fit the theory to what we WANT to believe ... but?  What about these Attachment people???

So if you adopt before a critical age and be a responsible parent, the attachment will not be an issue, but if the child is adopted after a certain developmental point (and they have had inadequate or worse care as infants), that's when it arises as a problem?  Is that right?

I do think that that does make sense, but have no idea when that critical age is.  Does it vary?  My infant son was not "abused" but he was medically injured over and over and over.  I just think that since he was so young, it did not impact his attachment to me or my husband.  I think his prenatal stress or the fact that he crashed and had to be resuscitated or the powerful meds are likely to be instrumental in his PDD NOS status. 

Did I consider his pain history when he was growing up?  Yes...he was terrified to get his photo taken professionally until he was nearly three. The table and bright lights put him on red alert.

Oh, and when i said he was affectionate, I didn't mean indiscriminately so (I know kids sort of like this).  After about 2 to 3 months of school, he will sometimes tell the warmest of his teachers he loves her.  He will hug special people in his life, pat small children on the back when they cry.

I don't know what its like to adopt an older child, just know what its like to "kinda adopt" my own infant.  Wish you guys the best!

[QUOTE=OZZIE-ROZIES-MA]I wonder if children who are more likely predisposed to autism or AS like symptoms are given up to the orphanages because the parent has trouble connecting with them early. 

Kinda like viewing it from the alternative of the child isn't rebellious because of the innate strickness parent but the parent becomes stricter because of the innate rebelliousness of the child.

[/QUOTE]

YEP!  I have wondered the same thing ... I KNOW ADHD and other LDs are more common in adopted kids.  I have sometimes wondered if my DS was not relinquished by his birthmom, b/c he was her FOURTH BOY (and he is hyper! I woudl feel totally overwhelmed!).

My experience with my twins was very much like Freds. The first year was
a horrible blur, I was hallucinating and on two occasions delusional from
extreme sleepdepravation. I almost died when they were a month old
(and had emergency surgery) and came close to being hospitalized on
two other occasions. And without any help I was alone with them and
their 3 year old brother every day for 12 hours - I think the whole
experience took years of my life. But the girls are fine. It is my firstborn-
who was an easy baby and had all the loving on-on-one attention in the
world- who is asd.
Here is what I think: Asd and RAD are alike in their symptoms but have
different causes. In each case kids brains develope with delays and
scatter. In one case (RAF) the braincenters that need to be stimulated and
activated by an attentive environment do not due to extreme neglect. In
the other case (autism) those centers do develope with delay and scatter
because of some genetic malfunction.

http://www.aboutourkids.org/aboutour/articles/about_attachme nt.html

But then there is this ... from the link above.

Reactive Attachment Disorder must be distinguished from Severe Mental Retardation, Autistic Disorder or other Pervasive Developmental Disorders. Unlike Reactive Attachment Disorder, however, these other disorders usually occur in the context of a reasonably supportive psychosocial environment whereas Reactive Attachment Disorder is due to a grossly deprived environment. Autistic Disorder and Reactive Attachment Disorder may seem similar; however it is important to note that a child with autism has a neurologically based disability which impedes expected development in social relationships whereas a child with Reactive Attachment Disorder has the capacity to comprehend social relationships, but does not function appropriately. Neglect, not a neurological difficulty, is the causal factor.

Sounds reasonable ... just wonder, WHERE does that first theorist, the one that provoked my post in the first place, get the stuff about physiologic changes in the brain, due to an environment of deprivation?

Sounds reasonable ... just wonder, WHERE does that first theorist, the one that provoked my post in the first place, get the stuff about physiologic changes in the brain, due to an environment of deprivation?

To me, it sounds like a change of perspective of how the world works.  It's like witnessing something that once you see it you can't go back to the innocence of before.  Some kids who lose entitlement which is what regular kids have and these kids lose... can't go back to it; anyone who later tries to give it to them is doing them a favour.  And that's how they feel.  They know it can be taken at anytime and won't give that control to someone else.  Regardless if you wrap them in a blanket for hours they will only outwardly go through the motions for survival. 

This is an interesting discussion, which hits home for me, due to Donny's
background.

I certainly don't think that all, or even most autism is caused by
parenting, neglect, etc. I, like Fred, believe there are probably a variety of
causes of autism, since autism is only defined by a cluster of symptoms,
and no concrete medical tests. I personally believe that most cases have
a genetic origin.

In Donny's case, there are many possible causes. His mother did drugs
and alcohol while she was pregnant. There was stress and domestic
violence in the home during her pregnancy. The chemicals the body
produces during stress can and do cause the placental barrier and
influence the infant's development. PTSD can be triggered in an infant
before he/she is even born, if the mother is under constant severe stress,
due to the chronic stimulation of the adrenals. Plus, the infant responds
to the external stimuli (shouting, physical violence, etc.) as much as to
the internal stimuli (mom's stress level). After Donny was born, he was
severely abused and neglected, with inconsistent parenting and multiple
caregivers until he was 3 years old. The brain is still developing during
this time, so this may very well have influenced his brain development.

there's also a likely genetic component for Don. His grandfather, from
the sounds of things, had ADHD and mild learning disabilities. His mom
and dad both have substance abuse problems and his dad has a history
of criminal involvement. His paternal uncle committed suicide at age 20.
His maternal uncle has severe learning disabilities. His maternal
grandmother is an alcoholic. So there's a history of likely mental health
issues there, and as we know, there's a higher incidence of autism in
families with history of anxiety, bipolar, OCD, etc. Further, Donny's
brother, who is 2 years older than him (but also shared the same
experiences he did) is diagnosed with PDD NOS I believe, although he's
much less severely affected than Donny is from what I understand.

I read the book "Ghosts from the Nursery", which talks about brain
development, and how it's not a clear nurture versus nature question, as
the brain is still physically developing and can actually be PHYSICALLY
CHANGED by experience and environmental factors from conception
through to two years of age. For example, newborn baby mammals, if
their eyes are sown shut (yes that's gross I know) at birth, and then
openned three weeks later - their blind for life. There's nothing
physically wrong with their eyes, but the neural pathways, if not
stimulated, don't develop. Language, hearing, etc. are all similar. If the
baby is not stimulated, he/she does not develop the proper neural
pathways...

All I know is with our son (whom it took us 15 YEARS to have!) we did Sears' attachment parenting, wore the sling, and we co-slept, 100% breast fed, 100 % pure and natural drug free medication free home birth, and just loved him so very much.....talked to him in utero from the moment we found out we were expecting, read to him, sang to him, played classical music............

I just wanted to share my experience with Christian. Also a preemie. Because he was so small I put him in my bed next to me so I could keep an eye on him. I was scared something might happen to him in his crib and he often spent much on the night sleeping on my chest. He was very colicky from about 3 mths. His incessant crying drove me crazy and many a time I though about throwing him out of the window - seriously. Then I would bawl because I had those horrible thoughts and he was this tiny innocent baby.  Husband was no help whatsoever. That was the beginning of the end of our marriage!

 

I was also becoming hypothyroid (Hashimoto’s) during that time. It was very stressful and my thyroid was out of whack plus I went back to work full time when he was 6 months. One day at my brother’s house, shortly after my niece was dx with Mad Cow Disease, he was playing the Gayatri Mantra. It was a female vocalists and he played it to calm my niece. I notice that it also put Chris to sleep. So from then on, I played it softly every night for about 4 years for him. I am East Indian but don’t know the first thing about my culture but understand that people meditate saying the Gayatri Mantra. I swear by it. It is sooo soothing.

 

Chris and I were practically stuck together like glue for the first 6 months of his life. I wouldn’t let him out of my sight. For some reason I knew he was different from my other 2 children and that he needed me more. I can’t explain but it was this feeling I had. Even now, you’d think the umbilical cord was still attached. So what I’m saying is that despite my few mean thoughts (which I now blame on my thyroid), I was and still am very attentive and nurturing. So I’m not sure about the attachment theories being the cause of Autism. Certainly not in Christian’s case. Actually, I over did everything. I sterilized his bottles, sippy cups and spoon until he was 4. He has slept in my bed since birth and he’s now 6. My NT 13 year old daughter also sleeps with me and we all cuddle together. It’s wonderful!

I just want to be clear that no one's suggesting that attachment disorder is a common underlying cause in autism - just that it may be a cause in rare circumstances, if ever.

Fred, if you KNEW how many adoptive parents live in terror of reactive attachment disorder, though! 

And how many diagnoses there ARE. 

I doubt if anyone here would recall the death of a ten year old, undergoing a "Rebirthing Therapy," she vomited and aspirated during this ritual, inside a blanket.  An attempt to reconstruct her birth. 

But ... in adoption, attachment disorder is a BIG deal.  I jsut really wonder when people go so far as to ascribe physiologic changes to postnatal emotional traumas.

The whold nature v. nuture debate, as well as adoption issues and attachment, are hot buttons for me.

I was adopted as an infant (2 weeks old).  I was adopted by wonderful people, though our home was somewhat dysfunctional growing up as my mom has suffered from anxiety, depression, chronic migranes and addiction to painkillers her entire life and it limited her ability to be there for me when I was growing up.  My dad though more than made up for it.  (I'm not bitter, and we all have a close relationship.  I understand and accept my mother's limitations just as I hope she has come to accept mine.)  I am nothing like my parents in looks, personality, attitude and temperment.  We have completely different interests, abilities and lifestyles.  However we all love each other very much.

11 years ago, when I was in my twenties, I found my birth parents.  They are both married to other people, and through my birth mother I have 2 half sisters.  I am very close with everyone.   My sisters and I had somewhat different upbringings.  I had the dyfunctional family, but more money.  They were worse off financially, but did more together as a family.  Here is the freaky part.  My sisters and I look alike, act alike, sound alike, have very similar personalities, have most interests and hobbies in common and the day we met I found myself telling them things that I had never before told a living soul.  Attachment was instant.  It was like getting two best friends overnight and it has stayed that way.  Similar with my birth mother and my birth father.  We are all so close and we have so much in common.

Based on my experiences, I truly believe that nature trumps nurture.  Not that nurture isn't important.  It is nurture that allows each of us to reach our maximum potential, but we are born with that potential.  I believe that personality and temperment is inherited just like hair and eye color.  In my case I've seen this and lived it.

I also think that this attachment stuff is being blown way out of proportion.  Yes, I can see that having a child spend the first two years of development in an environment of extreme neglect can have a strong negative impact on that child and cause emotional/developmental issues.  But that doesn't apply only to adopted kids.  Parent who neglect their biological children can create this same situation.  However, I think that worries that not breastfeeding for a certain amount of time, etc. will cause subpar attachment between mother and child is a bunch of hooey.  Not breastfeeding is not neglect.  Taking a break from your screaming colicky child is not neglect - noone can be expected to hold and comfort a screaming child 24x7.  Passing childcare off to another when you are too sick to do it yourself is not neglect.

My 17 year old nieces were just like Fred's girls - for the first 3 months they screamed 24x7.  They had twin-twin transfusion syndrome and one of them was rushed to a bigger hospital 20 miles away, and since my SIL had a C section and couldn't travel she didn't even see one of her babies until she was 5 days old, and that twin spent 30 days in NICU.  My SIL has told me about the time she just went into the garage and sat in the car just to get away from the screaming, and the time she found my BIL just sitting on the floor between the two cribs crying because nothing would comfort them.  The girls went to a year of speech for articulation issues when they started school but other than that are NT as can be and are part of a very close and loving family.  There are tons of women out there that have suffered from post partum depression and their children turn out just fine!

OK, I need to get back to work.  This topic gets me somewhat riled up!!!

kristys39303.5906365741

I'm sorry I don't have a lot of time to be specific but I remeber being taught something about the size of ventricles in the brain being affected by neglect. Maybe that's what the author is talking about with regards to physiology.

 

Yes that is one thing -- the author in the link I posted in my OP lists the physiologic changes to the brain, in fact.  Or the brain areas responsible for the symptoms, which she purports cause the symptoms.

We didn't adopt our son, but he spent the first 110 days of his life in the NICU.  We like to think he had his first apartment with adoring females attending to his every need before he even made it home!

The truth is, Cole got heel-sticks with needles multiple times a day for 110 days.  He got a new IV stuck into his miniature veins at least once daily for 28 days (he's got 40 or so IV scars).  He had hernia surgery.  He had 5 transfusions.  He had a feeding tube down his nose for 3 months.  He had a breathing tube stuck down him for 3 weeks.  This is in the first 3 1/2 months of life. 

At age one, he had his penis surgically rebuilt (3 1/2 hours under the knife).  He had a catheter in for 10 days.  His father had to nightly stick a tiny tube up his penis to keep it from closing off - that was for 3 months.  He had three sets of penile dilations by the doctor - they stick a tiny tube up his penis, then a bigger one, then a bigger one - until the 6th one they do is about half the diameter of a pencil.  He got monthly injections every winter for three years to ward off RSV.  You think he LIKED people after this crap???

Yes!  He is the most snuggly, affectionate, and adoring little boy you'd ever want to meet!  All this stuff took place so early on that it had no bearing on his attachment.

Honestly?  I don't think they are smart enough to attach before a certain age.  No offense to any child anywhere, but they are like smart little bugs for awhile, and that's it.  They are programmed to be in survival mode. 

They associate person A with  milk.  Person A picks them up immediately when they cry.  Person A removes that annoying wet diaper.  Person A holds them and keeps them warm, simulating that nice cozy womb feeling.  Thus, Person A is somebody they want around!

Sure, they may have a foggy rememberance of Person A's voice, but that ain't diddly doodle compared to food, comfort, and coziness.  Now, if a baby languishes in a crib all alone for a year and has to scream its guts out to get milk, a diaper change, and a snuggle - that's a different story.  But I think they are very, very adaptable.

I believe kids who are adopted by kind, nurturing parents are not missing out on anything.  Cole is my biological child, but aside from my time with him daily in the NICU, he didn't live with us until he was almost four months old.  So in a way, we adopted our own child and he withstood horrible pain along the way.  If HE attached just fine, then I think that theory may be bunk.   

Sharon p: are you aware hoshimoto's is virus caused my Dr. said. I have that now. I was just hypo before. Here there is a ent in Austin treating asd kids with antiviral/antinflimation drugs. They are doing way better than before. That type thyroid is where the body attacks the thyroid gland and destroys the gland.Daniel had loads of respitory problem his 1st year of life. He's a mom's kid. Daniel was born blue/cord aroung neck.

Leanne I think that is true.  But ... the thing with internationally adopted kids is, SOMETIMES they languish in orphanages for months, while the legality of the adoption is being processed.  It must be confirmed that they were abandoned, or legally relinquished, etc., and in the meantime they are generally NOT kept under the best of conditions -- understaffing etc. like US nursing homes.

T probably had the best of circumstances, once she was relinquished ... but she did undergo abandonment and when she WAS relinquished it was to a hospital.   We did not get her until she was 12 mos.

My son was two years.  My younger dd was 2.5 years -- 10 months after we  got her referral and she was given to the orphanage at birth!

I visited friends of mine who had just brought home their 2.5 year old
internationally adopted girl. She was very affectionate with me and I could
tell that I should not really engage her that way because she was basically
reacting the same way to me than to her new parents. I think someone
who has not had a consistant caregiver would not have a chance to
securely attach to someone. I do think that in a few years time she will be
attached to her parents.
My ds who is seven has never been away from me longer than 8 hours
and was never even in daycare. He is affectionate with me but will also go
up to complete strangers and hug them and tell them he loves them. I
think in the moment when he sees and hugs people there is no difference
for him if it is his parent or a complete stranger. There is clearly
something going on with how indiscriminetly he can attach. He has not
had stranger anxiety or seperation anxiety. I am not sure that he will ever
be attached in the same way my NT kids are but he might learn the social
rules of not approaching strangers and family alike.
LeAnne, what you're talking about, with needs being met consistently -
that IS what forms attachment. Attachment isn't about being cooed to,
kissed and cuddled, although those things most certainly help.
Attachment happens in very young infants, and happens when their needs
are met in a positive and consistent manner. That's when they learn to
form attachments. It doesn't matter who they attach to - if they have one
person consistently meet their physical needs, and they are kept safe and
warm for the first 6 months or so of life, they are able to attach to other
caregivers in future.

However, if you take that same infant, and have place it in a home where
it's needs are NOT met reliably, where sometimes crying leads to a bottle
and bum change, and other times it gets no response, and still other
times it leads to being shaken or walloped, you can wind up with a baby
who does not learn attachment, and who then does not orient to other
people/adults as he grows.

Attachment behaviours are hardwired into infants. They cry to get their
needs met. In a healthy setting, this crying is rewarded by a doting adult
meeting baby's needs. Baby learns to associate crying=caregiver comes
and makes it all better=caregiver is rewarding. But, if this crying is not
rewarded, the baby doesn't make the association, and will eventually lose
those hardwired behaviour. Really, it's the same principles of ABA or any
behavioural science - behaviour which is rewarded will be repeated.
Behaviour that is not rewarded will decrease in frequency, and eventually
disappear.

Another scenario that can come up with attachment, that I've just been
witnessing: my cousin has applied to adopt the infant of a woman she
knows through a friend. This baby is in foster care, as she was born
crack addicted, and her mom is not able to care for her. In foster care,
baby's needs are met, but she doesn't actually get a chance to ever feel
distressed and have that relieved by a caregiver. What I mean is that, her
foster mom has fostered over 100 crack babies and is in a routine. Baby
is propped up and fed on schedule, whether she's hungry or not - in fact,
she's never given the opportunity to BE hungry. Likewise with changing
her diaper, etc. This might seem like great caregiving, but in reality, the
baby never gets to feel distressed, and so never gets to be "saved" by her
caregiver. As a result, she's already showing major signs of RAD. She is
lethargic and disinterested in people. She never cries, not even if she's
hurt, because she never learned to cry...

Anyway, I'm somewhat off topic here. I just wanted to say that, while
certainly it's speculation to say that lack of attachment can cause autism,
it's not speculation at all, IMO, to say that attachment is a critical process
that occurs in early infancy.

[QUOTE=Donny's mom]
Another scenario that can come up with attachment, that I've just been
witnessing: my cousin has applied to adopt the infant of a woman she
knows through a friend. This baby is in foster care, as she was born
crack addicted, and her mom is not able to care for her. In foster care,
baby's needs are met, but she doesn't actually get a chance to ever feel
distressed and have that relieved by a caregiver. What I mean is that, her
foster mom has fostered over 100 crack babies and is in a routine. Baby
is propped up and fed on schedule, whether she's hungry or not - in fact,
she's never given the opportunity to BE hungry. Likewise with changing
her diaper, etc. This might seem like great caregiving, but in reality, the
baby never gets to feel distressed, and so never gets to be "saved" by her
caregiver. As a result, she's already showing major signs of RAD. She is
lethargic and disinterested in people. She never cries, not even if she's
hurt, because she never learned to cry...

Anyway, I'm somewhat off topic here. I just wanted to say that, while
certainly it's speculation to say that lack of attachment can cause autism,
it's not speculation at all, IMO, to say that attachment is a critical process
that occurs in early infancy.[/QUOTE]

Yes -- you must have the cycle of need AND need fulfillment, in order to have attachment.  I read that and absolutely agree with that aspect of it.  Donny's Mom -- did you read the site linked in my OP?  What did you think?

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