When will she care?? | Autism PDD

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My son is 7.5y and at times can show empathy--I think. Maybe I'm thinking more of just showing emotion. He can be very nice and sweet to the dogs and hug them. And even say nice things. He has tons of love and hugs for me!

But---empathy?? I don't think so. Wait!! I actually really hurt myself a couple of days ago. He was the only kid in the room. He actually asked me what's wrong!!

I really never noticed when younger if he had empathy or not. It's really only until he got a younger sister and I then noticed that she had empathy in the "normal" way and he didn't have that yet. She was pretty young when I saw it. Playing with dolls and showing empathy with them.

Jaden is four today and she just now in the past 3 or 4 months has shown some empathy for others. She sees kids fall and has said "ut oh--ya awright?" So cute.

          So is this a common trait among ASD kids??

         I didn't know if it was the SID or what.

           I just got to thinking, wow Destiny(oldest DD) was doing that way before 26 months. I hate that I think that way. I always compare the 2, especially with speech. I guess thats when I really noticed she was not  talking normal, when I watched a video of Destiny at her 2nd b-day party, she could hold mini-conversations and was very social. That was the major moment when every 'she will talk when ready' went out the window.  At Trinitys 2nd b-day party she sat and watched a movie almost the entire time. When it was time to open presents she had no intrest until she saw her drums then she stopped and played with them while everyone else had cake...I dunno spectrum or not, sometimes I just think thats typical 2yr old behavior then other times i'm like thats not normal...half the time I swear i'm losing my mind.         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;  

              It even almost seems the baby can tell if im upset(at 10months). I watch him like a hawk for ANY kind of red flag. For example most people would laugh at the cuteness of their baby walking on his toes(he is just learning) and I almost have a panic attack thinking about everything I have read about toe-walking.....I hate it.

okay thats enough now im getting way to emotional

The fact that your daughter is not in tune with your, emotionally, is a big red flag. Getting a medical diagnosis at such a young age is tricky.  Diagnoses after age 3 are the most accurate and they are the MOST accurate after age 5. However, the diagnosis is really immaterial at your daughter's age.  Her current developmental needs are key.  Does she get early intervention?  If not, look into it.  By age 2.5, look into getting her an IEP.  It really does not matter what her label is. What matters is that you are noticing odd development. That's important.  Even children who don't have any form of autism can have issues that need to be addressed. Trust your gut.  I don't think it's bad to compare kids.  "Normal" development is called "normal" because it's the NORM. The more your child is away from the norm, the more intervention is necessary, no matter what the possible medical diagnosis is.  Persist in getting your daughter intervention with or without an ASD dx.  And please try to find out more about RDI. You can do the exercises yourself without signing up for the rather expensive therapy.  Search Littlebopeep's posts to see some RDI videos.

She is curently going to ST and OT twice a week 30 mins each. She is doing better. She seems to do better in ST now since she has started OT(before ST) She used to sit in silence, now she will make animal sounds at the flash card(only if she holds them) and the barn puzzle. Seems like nothing but its big to me. She seems to be more mellow after swinging in OT so I let her get in her brothers swing and swing(used to make her get out) I am trying stuff at home with her. Working on converting sandbox(she hates sand) into a bean box...

I will look into RDI, thanks for the heads up.

I am getting a lot of BS from the in-laws who think she is fine and her  going to ST and OT is pointless.

Jasper is not completely blind to my emotions, but he's nowhere near as
"with it" as his typical peers. When other kids are upset, he just sort of
stares blankly at them. He has kissed my "boo-boos" before. But it was a
big SHOCK when it happened.Sharlet doesn't react to people being hurt or upset at all yet, but I can get
her to make laughing sounds back at me if I exaggerate heaps sometimes.
I'm not sure she really understands that I am happy but...

[QUOTE=tzoya]My son showed empathy early, but he doesn't seem to have the emotion-blindness that many ASD kids have. His issues are mostly in the communication area.  But the very fact that he didn't have this emotion blindness is why the psychiatrist waited until he was 6 to give him the PDD-NOS diagnosis.  Had he had more lack of empathy, he would probably have been dx'd with Autism or at least have gotten the PDD-NOS diagnosis sooner (tho we knew by 2 that he probably was somewhere on the spectrum).  [/QUOTE]

My son exactly.  C has always had alot of empathy and emotion - no emotion blindness.  In fact, I think C has always demonstrated more empathy than his brother and peers.  Issues here are primary communication too.  Interestingly enough, we didn't get a dx until age 6 either, though we started therapy at age 2 for speech and OT with assumption he was somewhere on the spectrum.  Tzoya, I read your post and it was freaky because it was our situation exactly.

My ds has never had emotion blindness either. I had no idea he was on the spectrum until he was about 3 1/2, but we read books about emotions and I would ask him how different people felt by either looking at their face or listening to their tone of voice - from a very early age. I'm a former social worker and emotions/feelings are very important to me - so I just naturally "taught" that whole concept to both my kids. But, I don't think my ds was that much different than my dd in that regard.

Ds is often running to go get an ice-pack if someone gets hurt - or running over to see if they are okay. However, I don't think he was THAT involved until he was about 3 1/2. He would be concerned but not DO anything about it.

My dd showed empathy from a very early age. She is always running to get me a blanket and her bunny if I yawn even slightly - too cute!

I think there is a wide variance though. Some kids are able to show empathy in certain situations but not in others (this includes NT kids)...

Yup - but remember that there are 12 symptoms of autism. Lack of social/emotional reciprocity is one - but a child doesn't need to have that in order to qualify! As I said earlier, my son definitely has empathy - and that has been noted on his evaluations as well. But every once in a while, he will laugh inappropriately at someone either being hurt or crying. He usually quickly realizes this is not okay - I think he does it out of nervousness. It might also be he catches the extremely dirty look I give him if he does it! I use every single one of those instances as a teaching moment. I never let one slip by - I may have to wait an hour (if we're in public) to bring it up and discuss it privately, but I ALWAYS do that. With him, consistency is key and really reinforces his ability to empathize. I think with some kids, it CAN be taught - but with others, I'm not sure.

Sadly, my almost 6 year has almost total emotion blindness, Its not a nice thing at all,he only cries if he is punished, even then its always when he is screaming at me,he can get very mean and nasty. and if I cry he will Laugh.

He has never had empathy , It is the one thing I Hate About his Autism.Its the thing I worry about the most.

Linda

 

Norwaymom,

I checked out that link too and it seems that in everything I read empathy comes up.

I was pulling through my old paperwork and found an IEP update from when C was 4 (2nd year of EI preschool).  In the strengths section the teacher said "C is a good friend to others and is quick to comfort another child that is hurt or upset."  In light of all I've read recently, that sees like an unlikely strength for a kid on the spectrum.  This is all so interesting - our kids have so much in common yet are so incredibly unique.

It's funny that you should bring this up, because empathy has been on my mind since yesterday, when I read this 1994 article by Dr. Ritvo in connection with Mama Kat's topic.  He gives a chart of what autism is like -- severe, moderate, mild and sub-clinical.  Even in mild and sub-clinical he lists "lacks empathy," and my son definitely doesn't lack empathy!

http://www.faaas.org/doc.php?32,172,114343p,faa491125,,,Doc, page.html

When he was under 3, I could yell at him and he wouldn't seem to get that I was angry.  It was like water off a duck's back.  I had mixed feelings the first time he cried when I yelled at him -- sorry that I had lost my temper, but glad that he was reacting more appropriately.  Now he even sticks up for his little brother if I raise my voice at him.  He claims that what makes him maddest of all is when someone is mean to his little brother (this came up in a discussion/lesson about emotions and self-regulation).

I don't remember exactly when empathy kicked in, but I remember going to the clinic when he was almost 5, and he tried to run to the rescue of an old lady who sank to her knees on the way out of the clinic (she didn't get hurt, her husband was at her side).

My son still misses a lot of social cues, but empathy is definitely there.

Now, Trinity is happy, she laughs when you laugh or when you tickle her at the animals or sometimes for reasons beyond my comprehension...but she laughs. She just does not care if your hurt or if anyone is crying.

Woodsman your description is so vivid and SO similar to my own experience and thoughts of my childhood empathy.   I was slow to develop it for sure and never sure when the turning point came, between being sad at MY OWN loss, or sad for the animal or person.  But ... it definitely DID develop, in time.

Skylar is going to be 5 years old in Sept. and he is just now starting to show (some) empathy. If he sees me or his sister crying he will come and ask whats wrong and will give a hug and say that it will be ok. But there are times, that he still finds others pain terribly funny. I guess it all depends on HIS mood.

I have to ask, when do children typically start to show empathy? DD is 26 months and still does not show any. I will play with her and hide under a blanket and yell help me! Help me! She doesn’t get she needs pull the blanket off and ‘save me’ also I will fake cry if she hits me in the face

Thanks!

hmmm, i think the first time i can seriously remember showing embathy (this may or may not count) was at age 10, my parakeet was dying, we were forced to put it down, i say this may or may not count because i was showing an obvious emotion, i was the only who was genuanly hurt knowing what we would have to do, i honestly cant say if its truly because i was sad that the bird had to die because it could not funtion or eat (i still played with it a day or 2 after it had what seemed like a stroke?!) maby i was rough with it even at that time, i felt no saddness, but then, the day came, to put it down, i wonder if i was sad knowing that the routine of playing with my bird was gone forever, or that it was saddness that the bird had to die, i dont know, its such a difficult thought, dont know where the emotion truly came from.

Maby this does not even count, i mean, my saddness eather was was self centered, but later, i would show, but not till much later, i feel i have quite a bit of empathy, i feel bad for many ppl sometimes, maby it goes back farther then i can remember... im not sure.

shell get their in time...

Sarah had  an ABA program to learn emotions in others and how to react...sad but true:( 

But she did learn to generalize it to others and has great empathy now not only to us humans but to animals as well.  We just made pics of emotions:sad, mad, happy, sick, silly ect... and had her imitate and label her own feelings as well as identify ours as well..we made an emotions ball with all the emotions written all over it (sharpie marker) and in playgroup we had all the kids act out the emotions on the ball and take turns imitating them..

Always use an overly exaggerated expressions to go with the emotion....then model for her how she should react..praise her heavily for any attempts:)

She is still a baby:) We didnt even start this program till Sarah had some language at @ 4 years old. Good luck..it will come:)

My typical children had empathy as babies. Much sooner than 26 months.  They all cried when they seen me cry or heard anyone else cry.  With Adam it took a lot longer.

I don't know if this is what your asking or not but I believe that this can be typical of a child on the spectrum to lack a certain amount of empathy.  It certainly is  true of Adam.  He still is not where he should be as far as empathy goes and he is 5.  Recently his little brother broke his nose and was bleeding and it scared adam so he started screaming but not because he was worried about him...it was because seeing the blood scared him.  Does this make sense?

Karrie

Empathy and Social Empathy comes in many forms. Just like all other
areas of delay/deficit associated w/autism, our children are all affected
differently.

One thing is the definition of empathy is usually broader in a clinical
sense than in the way we use the term in our day to day lives. It's not just
about caring or comforting another. The ability to understand other
peoples motivations, or relate at a more complex level of emotional
understanding is part of it as well. Some people with autism also have
trouble understanding how their behaviors can affect how others view
them. Or have an inability to understand when they have hurt someone's
feelings...etc.

Some kids may be able to recognize and express emotions. But as they
grow, some of them may have an impaired ability to really "put
themselves in someone elses shoes"

Some kids will be only mildly affected in this area as adults, some will be
profoundly affected. You probably won't be able to determine this while
your kid is still so young. Our kids are always surprising us!As Anthony lacks in other things..Speech being the main problem at this point. When My Dad passed away very sudden and unexpected, My sister (anthonys mother) was hysterical crying as we all were...she was sad..and he went over to her (at the time he was just 3 yrs old) and patted her head and put his mouth on her cheek...it was another crying moment!!!    

Now see that is one area where my ds was really good - he was awesome with his baby sister. However, he was one month shy of 3 when she was born - that is a MUCH greater difference than yours, Pangle! He was very protective of her and would cover her up in her bouncy seat (he always made sure to not cover her head too!) if she was crying. He knew what her cries meant about 85% of the time - maybe more. Sometimes he knew better than me!

I remember when he was having the ADOS done and the completely incompetent psychologist asked if they should put a blanket over the baby so she could sleep. He said no. I was surprised he didn't say (because he was REALLY good at giving lectures on baby care at that point!) that you're not supposed to put blankets on babies when they are sleeping!

But as someone else mentioned - I think that ds is not able to see the other person's point of view when he thinks something is not fair. However, I think a LOT of NT kids are like this until a certain age (I would guess 6 or 7). They may back down quicker (because they see that there is no way out) - but they don't truly get the other person's point of view a lot of the time.

But again, just my thoughts!

Pangle, not it's not empathy if it's for herself. The main part of empathy is being able to identify how another person might feel and how they might be thinking and to care about that. It's all about other people...

MamaKat, that was a very good point about the clinical definition of empathy being broader. 

My son is capable of empathy in clear-cut situations like an accident or injury, but probably not in more complex situations (yet) -- especially if his own feelings of strong.  Like if he feels something isn't fair, he can't necessary see the other person's side, his experience of his own strong emotions overpower all other considerations.

 

Ok, so does it make sense that she gets upset when she is punished?You can yell and it does not bother her but time out breaks her heart. One time when her brother was first born she slapped him in the face and look confused when we told her no, it hurts the baby she did it again the next day and when we yelled no at her it just didnt bother her. I have to be careful with her around him if he will try and take a toy she will push him away. She just does't get that he is little.  Now that we are doing time out she will stick out her bottom lip and pout and put her head down and look sad. Does that count as empathy if its not toward others but for herself? She will get in moods where she wants to hold and love on her brother then other times if he even gets in the same room as her she has a tantrum. Just depends on her mood. I am confused.again.

I'd call not reacting to yelling "flat or inappropriate affect."  The way she reacts to time-out seems appropriate, but not empathy.

Her problems with the baby could stem from lack of empathy, but may also stem from trouble with impulse control -- she lashes out or reacts before she has time to think.  My son would lash out at his younger brother (3-1/2 year age difference) but he thankfully he never put much force behind it and outgrew it by age 7 or so.  In the meantime I had to monitor them when they played together.

 

You have to teach it. Act it out. My daughter has learned it a little. She is 6 yrs
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