On phobias | Autism PDD
[quote="shenom"]Wow Nick, this is an amazing explanation. It really crystallizes in my mind not only where phobias come from, but how to prevent them (i.e. watch how I react to things). Thank you so much for this incredibly insightful post.[/quote]
Unfortunately that's only the tip of the figurative iceberg. It goes way deeper than just how you react to things. Suffice it to say, though, that the more you can explain to your children, even if you think the matter is over their heads, the more aware they will be of their environment. The thing is, even if you watch how YOU react, you can't control how other people react. If possible you should explain why the reaction occurred, and what was done to resolve it. That will take some of the guesswork, on the part of an autistic, out of trying to figure out why the situation became chaotic, and when things will return to normal, because they will be able to watch which actions are occurring and predict what remains to be done until the problem is solved. It's all about predictability in these cases.
But first you have to figure out what the trigger was. And there are cases where the child simply thinks something is going to get them or eat them, just like what you see in NT children. That's whay it's important to watch them play. If something's really bugging them, they will sometimes throw you clues.
The thing is, I can tell you the things *I* went through. But each kid is different, and while the roots of the problem may be similar, the path there can vary from child to child, so it's important to pay attention to what you're seeing them do, and use those things as clues that you may or may not be able to plug in to what I am describing.
YES!
And Tuhina's poop phobia, now you reminded me, began when she pooped in the tub when I was in it ... and I jumped up yelling ... ! An eloquent description, thank you.
I HAVE learned to be lower-key in my reactions. Thankfully -- and not just for HER!
Wow that is very interesting! We took my son to see an old train in a neighborhood park and he was sooo terrified of it he almost got hit by a car because he clawed like a trapped animal out of my husbands arms and bolts towards the highway. Of course I almost died of a heart attack! Anywayz we were so confused why hed act like he did especially cuz he loves thomas and has been to that park before. Later about a month or so he was saying he wanted to go to the chu chu train i didnt want to take him because of how he acted last time and I didnt want him to get banged by a car! We drove past and he got really anxious and antsy and hyperventilating and i felt so bad cuz i could tell he wanted to go see it so badly but was terrified for some unknown reason. I totally forgot about this one time we took him to the park awhile before this incident and soon after getting there there was this van of disgusting inbred looking guys who u turned on the highway and drove past us really slowly just starring a couple of times. I started freaking out and we left. I never explained why i was freaking out to him all he knew is that i definately was and we left very quickly. It makes alot of sense. Also last week (about 7 months after) we took him there cuz he was begging to go like usual but he never wants to get out of the car but this time he went on the train and had alot of fun (altho he seemed to look at it anxiously a couple times).I had to set my watch to where the bell would ring exactly when the seconds hit "00" in order to functin in class. Without my watch, I was unable to focus on anything but the clock.
We made the DRASTIC mistake of freaking out when, after teaching our son the body parts, he asked to see someones. NOW EVERY TIME he has a meltdown he says, loudly, the inappropriate private body part words. AAUUGHHH! I know they are just words, but in public.....these are tough. When he asks to see his elderly doctors body parts, or the respectable older lady at the grocery store, i think i may faint. We have tried EVERTHING, from ignoring it to anything else, no luck. This has been going on for YEARS and even makes people not want to do respite with him lest their own child say the words.
HELP!
By the way banged means hit, its a hawaiian slang. My husband informed me that everyone would probably not know what I was saying there.....
Hey Nick, sorry you couldnt understand my post. Maybe I should ask you......
My son was terrified of a train in a park near our house that had been retired there its called locomotive park. Weve taken my son there before and he loved going there. He also loves watching "thomas" on t.v. and playing with trains. One day we went there before christmas in the evening and as soon as we got there a van full of creepy looking guys u-turned on the highway and started driving back and forth right by us making noises. I got really freaked out because to me it looked like they were going to try and do something so we left very quickly.
We went back there a few weeks later during the day time and my son was acting like a trapped wild animal, screaming and crying. He got out of my husbands arms and ran toward the highway trying to get away from the train and I thought he was going to get hit by a car but he stopped and I slowly walked my way over to him. We were sooo confused to why he acted like that. Months later hed ask from time to time he wanted to see the train again and I wasnt sure about taking him back there but we drove him to the park and he started hyperventilating and got anxious and didnt want to go out so we didnt push it of course.
This past week he asked to go there again since we were across the street from it at the museum nearby. We took him and he climbed on the train and I got pictures of him standing by it. He seemed just a little nervous and glanced at it anxiously a couple of times but that was it. He had fun that day.
So reading your post it made me think that maybe that day I freaked out might have made him associate me freaking out with the train since we just got there and left right after? Thats what I thought, but maybe not! Maybe it was some visual problem he was just having that day? What do you think?
As far as the overhead airplanes, it could be an auditory sensitivity. When I was little we lived about 10 miles from Little Rock Air Force Base and I used to hate it when those big cargo jets (C-141 and KC-135) would fly over because the shrillness and intensity of their engines literally hurt deep into my ears and also made my skin crawl, just as the school bell did (train whistles at close range have this effect on me as well if I am not inside a car witht he windows rolled up). If the jet noise causes him physical pain (or if it has ever done so in the past and he anticipates it at the sight of a flying airplane) he will be afraid of it until he figures out how to cope with it.
I eventually coped with that one by learning the names of the different planes that would circle the base. I learned that the C-141 and KC-135 would be loud and painful, so if I saw one coming I could hold my ears until it passed, whereas the C-130, AWACS, and various helicopters would have a less abrasive sound and thus didn't require me to hold my ears.
But the floor one has me totally stumped....What about the u-turns, reverse, and turns while in the car?? Any insight on that?
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Well that depends. It may be a phobia, or it may be that he's spazzing because he was paying attention to the road and is not expecting to change direction. He may have his eyes fixed on what's ahead and is thrown for a loop when the car turns and he never reaches what he sees coming.
If you were referring to Hayden's post, that post was kind of difficult for me to read so I didn't get many of the details..Wait -- that was in the other thread, wasn't it?
I'll see if I can find it...
Alrighty then; that would be this one...
[quote="tr3ndimomma"]Do you kids have any strange fears? My son acts terrified when:
We do a U-turn
Reverse in a car or take a turn
Drive Thru (the voice box)
hair brushes
fish out of water (real ones)
There is a part in the movie Ice Age 2 that scares him...it's just when the tiger and the mammoth come close together and talk to each other!
Those are just SOME of his real fears. He has ones that he just covers his ears for or screams for a second.
[/quote]
Yeah it's hard to say without any more details. But I'd be willing to speculate that the first two have something to do with what is expected vs. what is happening. It falls a little more in line with a minor meltdown than it does with a phobia, but sometimes a phobia can develop as a defenseive avoidance of a meltdown trigger.
Thank you again for your insight. I really can't express how much it is
appreciated. Our daughter seems to have new anxieties & phobias each
week, and their severity sometimes fluxuates as well (one time, just a
little scared, next time, majorly freaked out). I defenitely see that she
develops a phobia after an extreme reaction--our older daughter is uber-
dramatic (lol!) & she'll send my daughter spiraling into a panic after a
shriek etc.
I think it's so important to hear your perspective, and especially about
explaining to children. It can be easy as a parent to assume your child
won't get it, especially if they are unable to verbalize. When our dd was
completely nonverbal, we even had medical professionals assume she had
not a clue as to what was going on (give her a shot or something, without
explanation OR even a sticker reward et al). I learned early on to SPEAK
UP & LOUD for my dd. But now, as she is able speak to some extent, I
think I sometimes forget that her speech is no where near reflective of her
cognitive abilities & intelligence. I know for a fact, the public doesn't get
it either. So, thanks again for that reminder & I know your advice will
help us, as it always does!THANK YOU!!
Nick, I think I'm ready to re-asess Jasper's floor and overhead airplane
phobia (which is clearly more than just a auditory sensitivity)
I'm just gonna keep looking for clues. I love the insight your posts provide.
I was going to reply to the last thread I saw concerning this subject, but I'm just going to start a new thread on this since it seems to be a common question. Phobias are a tricky subject because they, at least in my case, can have many origins and reasons. Some of these reasons can be very off the wall, but I think that, whe you really get to the bottom of it, they all have basically the same root. And that root is perception of one's own environment.
Many of the strange fears I had originated from my perception of other peple's reactions. I did not want to do anything that would cause any sort of "drama" or major change of pace from the adults because I felt like I was making a scene (not to mention it caused an unexpected change in plans and thus a rather frightening sequence of chaos from my perspective). So a lot of times, when something would happen that would cause the adults to react loudly or in any way that seemed dramatic or negative, the fear that the uproar invoked would be displaced onto the object that seemed to have caused it.
I don't know if that makes sense but I will give you an example of this. I went through a phase where I was terrified to flush the toilet or even sit on the toilet. My parents thought that I was afraid of the toilet, and even that I was refusing to go to the toilet (which I was, but not necessarily in a non-complliant way).
Turns out what had happened is that our pipes were getting roots in them and it was causing our sewer to slow down, so sometimes when you would flush the toilet it would back up and overflow, especially if you flushed something solid. Needless to say, an overflowing toilet causes a swift and seemingly panicky response by the adults in an effort to stop the overflow. This chaotic reaction, not the overflowing toilet itself, was terrifying to me. But since the toilet had caused it, I knew that there was risk involved with flushing it. I also knew that the phrase "stopped up" referred to a solid mass blocking the drain, so I became afraid to flush anything solid, including bowel movements, down the toilet. However, I couldn't just go and then leave it behind and not flush it because that also produced an undesired reaction. Thus I would hold it in as long as possible and refuse to use the toilet.
Unfortunately there was no way I could explain this to anyone, so no one understood why I was afraid to sit on the toilet. In fact I was not afraid of the toilet at all, but rather a frightening turn of events that could be triggered by messing the toilet up.
There are other times, though, when I misconstrued what was said about a particular place or object, and that misunderstanding can lead to a phobia attached to that particular place or object.
I'll tell you a story about a rather crippling phobia I had when I was about 2 1/2. My mom used to get upset when I would go in the back yard barefoot because the back yard was littered with debris -- namely my dad's spare car parts -- and she was afraid I would cut my foot on some stray metal. But all I knew is that when I would go outside she would scream "No! come back in here! You're bare-footed!" And I associated that anxiety with the phrase "bare-footed." I didn't know what the phrase meant, but I knew that anything that could freak my mom out like that must be a pretty tough customer, so I figured that something really scary-looking must be out in our back yard that would get me. So I associated the phrase "bare-footed" with the meanest, scariest looking car part that I saw in the back yard, which turned out to be an intake manifold. So after that association, now instead of worrying about me going into the back yard barefoot, my mom couldn't get me to go outside for anything because the "bare-footed" would get me. Of course, she had absolutely no idea what I was afraid of, but I would always say "it's out there." So, since life couldn't really go on as normal without me ever passing through the back door, she finally had to drag me, kicking and screaming, out into the yard to show her what the "bare-footed" looked like and identify it. She managed to convince me that if I would point at it, my dad would kill it (my dad was very big and imposing from my perspective, so I figured this was true). So from a safe distance, I identified the offending object and my dad promptly removed it from the yard, essentially solving the problem.
In both cases, what you ultimately see is an "unknown" stimulus in the environment that, until it is effectively explored and solved, is a constant stressor and thus a source of fear.
So how do you actually get to the root of the fear in someone who can't explain to you what is going on? Now that's the million dollar question. That's because many times the child is not really able to understand what is going on, let alone able to explain it to you. I can tell you, however, that I often played out my fears with my toys just as I played out my obsessions. Often a fear would itself become an obsession because I wanted to understand how an object that everyone else saw as trivial could affect me so adversely. And very often, in unlocking all the secrets about the object, either by asking a zillion questions or reading encyclopedias or books, I would gain knowledge of how the object fit into my world, and thus how to cope with it.
I think that someone who is dealing with a child that exhibits a bizarre phobia should be watched carefully during play in order to see if any clues can be garnered as to what the root of the fear is, because sometimes it's not the place or object itself, but a displaced idea that has somehow been attached to the object in question.
Thank you very much for your insight. You gave two very good examples that show how we really need to keep an open mind about what causes phobic reactions.
Wow Nick, this is an amazing explanation. It really crystallizes in my mind not only where phobias come from, but how to prevent them (i.e. watch how I react to things). Thank you so much for this incredibly insightful post. [QUOTE=143hayden]
By the way banged means hit, its a hawaiian slang. My husband informed me that everyone would probably not know what I was saying there.....
Hey Nick, sorry you couldnt understand my post. Maybe I should ask you......
My son was terrified of a train in a park near our house that had been retired there its called locomotive park. Weve taken my son there before and he loved going there. He also loves watching "thomas" on t.v. and playing with trains. One day we went there before christmas in the evening and as soon as we got there a van full of creepy looking guys u-turned on the highway and started driving back and forth right by us making noises. I got really freaked out because to me it looked like they were going to try and do something so we left very quickly.
We went back there a few weeks later during the day time and my son was acting like a trapped wild animal, screaming and crying. He got out of my husbands arms and ran toward the highway trying to get away from the train and I thought he was going to get hit by a car but he stopped and I slowly walked my way over to him. We were sooo confused to why he acted like that. Months later hed ask from time to time he wanted to see the train again and I wasnt sure about taking him back there but we drove him to the park and he started hyperventilating and got anxious and didnt want to go out so we didnt push it of course.
This past week he asked to go there again since we were across the street from it at the museum nearby. We took him and he climbed on the train and I got pictures of him standing by it. He seemed just a little nervous and glanced at it anxiously a couple of times but that was it. He had fun that day.
So reading your post it made me think that maybe that day I freaked out might have made him associate me freaking out with the train since we just got there and left right after? Thats what I thought, but maybe not! Maybe it was some visual problem he was just having that day? What do you think?
[/QUOTE]I think you're on the right track (no pun intended
)
It's very likely that the guys in the van were scary-looking to him as well as to you (it's not unreasonable to think that he saw them and pegged them as unusual), and seeing you afraid reinforced it. Seems to me like he really wanted to see the train, but was afraid the scary thing would happen again. It took him some time, but he finally convinced himself that nothing bad was going to happen.
Of course I can't see inside his head, but that's what it looks like to me.
Autumn, yours seems almost like a Tourette's sort of thing. If you are able to talk to him you might just consistently tell him that people do not show those parts. Unless it is some sort of a perseveration, he should eventually give up on it as he begins to realize that it is futile.
Of course if it IS a perseveration, he may be hard-pressed to stop until all of his queries are satisfied. But maybe you shouldn't cross that figurative bridge unless you come to it.....
Your right I guess I didnt give him the credit he might have actually seen them and gotten afraid from that as well as from my whole reaction too. Hes very very sensitive towards situations and even if he 'thinks' anyone is upset about ANYTHING, it throws him off and usually gets him hyperventilating or screaming and crying so your right about not wanting the scary thing happening again. Thanks alot! Your really smart and Ive learned ALOT from reading your threads.
Nick, you are very thoughtful to bump this one up!And, I'm sad to report thant Jasper is still afraid of the floor
It's one of
those things that "stuck" it goes up and down in intensity, though. Bumping this one up for 2nd round mom. Should have gone ahead and done this earlier today as it ties in quite a bit with sensory overload...
(sensory overload --> leads to meltdown --> leads to phobia)
If you compare the two topics you should be able to see how they tie into one another.
I have always been of the opinion that having ASD nonparents on this forum could be a very dangerous thing, because sometimes parents of ASD children could express something that may hurt the ASD individuals feelings. And in turn this may stifle open communications for some parents.
HOWEVER, I must say that your perspective, esp on this subject, is enormously helpful to so many parents.
My son is only 3.5 and has been obsessed with fans. It has only been for the past few months that he's been articulating to us that he is indeed terrified of fans. We suspected that his obsessions were rooted in either fears or something he didn't quite understand or was just anxious about. But now he's telling us so. So your personal experience is exactly what my son has been experiencing for all these months, it's just with different objects. And the more my son understands about those 'scary' objects the less his obsession. We use those 'scary' objects in pretend play alot to help him fear them less. Pretend play is a safe way to explore these scary feelings and resolve his issues with these objects.
You are right, children, even articulate ones, can have a very hard time expressing their feelings or anxieties. It is our job as parents to be observant to try to determine what the cause of the preoccupation or fear is and come up with ways to help our children master their fears.
I hope that what parents sometimes will express in their vent in this forum does not hurt you. Not a single person regrets having their beloved child on this forum. Our lives became a little unpredictable having a special needs child, thats all, so sometimes the frustration associated with that needs to be expressed. But your explanations and insight into what an ASD child may be feeling are enormously helpful to parents!
Thank you, thank you, thank you.....
Once again, you have shed light on things that I have exhausted my wits trying to figure out. While my ds doesn't have phobias, he does have obsessions. I was totally guilty of over reacting, and have toned my reactions WAY down. I noticed that my overreaction causes him to cover his ears, therefore I have to hold my tongue, and keep a straight face while having minor panic/anxiety attacks because of something that has happened.
Here's what I wonder.....Is it possible that his eating habbits are a phobia? I wonder if a reaction of ours to something he ate...or didn't eat, has caused this fear of tasting new things. I notice that he eats better for other people, and that he is even willing to taste something new if I am not around. He tried polish sausage for the first time this summer with my husband at my in-laws. I was in the other room, and was observing. I stayed in that room because I was afraid that if I made my presence known or gave any reaction to him, he would stop as it has happened before. He not only tasted it and liked it, but he ate two of them!!!!
Maybe I am just reaching...but it does make me wonder.....
Wow Nick - you have confirmed what I always have thought. That my ds gets obsessed by things he is afraid of in order to conquer his fears! He was TERRIFIED of the vacuum cleaner from the time he was about 18 months to about 2 1/2 years old. Yet, around age 2 he became obsessed with playing with them (just not when they were turned ON!). He had a toy one as well and would play with it for HOURS. But, my dh would have to take him out of the house if I wanted to vacuum.
He is now currently obsessed with hurricanes again (tis the season!). He went through a phase about weather about a year ago starting in the spring with tornados. To be quite honest, I did not miss that phase one bit. I got some books from the library about hurricanes to educate both of us about them (because frankly, I know very little about hurricanes having lived almost my whole life in the Midwest!). My husband thought it increased his fear and obsession and told me we should return all the books to the library and never check them out again.
So, my question is: should we give him even more info since this seems to be an issue again? Even if it increases his obsession? I think I have told him till I am blue in the face that there is NO POSSIBLE WAY a hurricane can happen in Minnesota! He wants to try to make hurricanes - possibly a way to get things under HIS control? Today his two best friends asked both me and ds why he talks so much about hurricanes. He didn't ever really answer them. But I used this as a learning opportunity and told ds that it sounded to me like the twins didn't want to continue talking about hurricanes so this would be a good time to stop talking about them for a while. He did!
This has been a VERY insightful thread and I thank you so much for it!
Well I have been interested in weather (especially hurricanes!!) since I was in about 4th grade. So I'd be happy to answer any of his questions about them.
I will say this about your question: some obsessions arise in order to conquer a fear, while others arise because the thing is just plain interesting. If he has an interest in weather, he may always have an interest in weather. I always have, along with an interest in plants and animals. Sometimes there's just always something new to learn and it never gets old. My rule of thumb is that if it's not hurting anything, there's really no reason not to indulge it. If he can be happy with something and it not cause any real harm, then it can't be all bad.
Nick,
Your insight on this is absolutely fascinating. My son hasn't ever had phobias, but I was riveted reading your posts all the same.
You write very well by the way, and have a knack for describing things in a way that really make situations come alive for the reader.
Thanks for this thread! For years, phobias were the most troubling aspect of my disorder and of my life. Every time someone in my family would get sick, I'd get so stressed out that I'd make myself physically sick within an hour, having uncontrollable diarrhea and nausea. All you had to say was, "I don't feel so good," or "My stomach is upset," and I'd be on the path to a complete melt down. I'm still that way to this day, unfortunately, only now I don't live in a 5-person household where people are sick as often.
I always wondered where exactly this phobia (emetophobia) came from. I do believe it's genetic, at least partially, as my paternal grandpa, aunt, dad, brother, and I all have the same exact fear (grandpa hasn't vomited since 1973, and dad has only done it ONCE in the 23 years I've been alive). I didn't learn to overreact to sickness from any of them, however. My mother said that when I was about 2 years old, she was extremely sick and kept vomiting (which she does VERY loudly). I wanted to play with her, and she kept stressing how sick she was over and over, and from then on, she said I was terrified of sickness. I read in my baby book that I would cover my ears, bring her medicine, and say, "Please don't gag, mommy." The sound of her getting sick was originally the only thing I feared, and over time that evolved into fear of ANYONE getting sick, including myself. The stress it caused often made me want to kill myself in childhood.
I also went through phases of being phobic of hand dryers in public restrooms, telephones, cancer (who's not?), wasps, and various TV shows like "Night Court". <-----LOL! Those have since faded away completely, thank God.
I think phobias come from a mixture of watching others' reactions to things, an unpleasant sensory experience (loud noise, painful tactile experience, etc.), and a genetic predisposition. It's been proven that specific phobias like those I've described have a genetic basis, so all you can really do is watch how you react to things and try to avoid environmental extremes like loud noises, and startling events (near car wrecks, crying, arguments, etc.). It seems that electronic devices have a lot of potential for causing fear reactions in those with ASD: loud smoke alarms, phones, vacuums, hand dryers, blenders, etc. I had some weird reactions to these, as I know others on this forum have as well.
The bottom line: phobias suck. Most fade with time, but some do not. Watch your reactions to things, because you can't take them back or explain them away once the phobia has been set into motion. By definition, a phobia is an irrational fear that the person KNOWS IS IRRATIONAL but cannot control.
OK I'm guessing that your avatar is your hand, taken against a dark background with a cell phone camera, then set to negative color before being uploaded to your computer.
Yes, a true phobia is what you said it is. Obviously, then, it's a little different in the case of ASD because a lot of times the fear is inadvertently induced and can thus be explained away with the proper input at the proper time. So I will admit that I am using the term "phobia" loosely. The sudden fears seen in people with autism can be different from true phobias because a lot of times they can be explained away whereas inherent phobias, which are not exclusive to ASD individuals, are often chronic and completely unfounded.
Nick, whenever we have bad weather - my ds immediately insists upon watching the weather channel and worries that we may have to go down in the basement (we DO live in in area where tornadoes can happen!). So, I think he is afraid of them to some extent.
He does have an obsession with Peter Pan and Captain Hook as well - THAT I know is not a fear! It is very different in a lot of ways. He enjoys playing pirates with anyone who will - which is awesome because LOTS of little boys (and girls too - my dd loves playing them as well!) want to play pirates. So, THIS obsession actually helps him interact. But, he does talk about it excessively to the point where there are days when I say, "You can tell me ONE more thing about Captain Hook or ask ONE more question and then we are done for an hour." He doesn't like this, but I can only take so much - particularly when I am driving. He knows it's a "safety violation" to keep talking to the driver (this is from Playhouse Disney's "Lou and Lou's Safety Patrol") so that usually stops it for a bit.
I do think he would make a good meteorologist some day and I would encourage that. But, he does some stimming where he pretends to BE a hurricane and runs back and forth and swirls all around. That is okay when he is alone, but when friends are over - well, you can guess they find it a bit strange. I have no problem indulging the obsession to some extent - but when it starts to interfere with his friendships and/or starts to make me crazy (especially when I'm driving) - then I put limits on it. I'm guessing this is frustrating for him (because I KNOW the situation is frustrating for ME) when I put limits on, but at times I simply have to. It used to be much more difficult to get him to stop talking on a subject, but since he has gotten older (and we have noticed a huge difference in obsessions since he started taking fish oil - and we forgot to give it to him the last three days - which is when the hurricane talk started escalating) it has gotten easier.
I don't want to dampen his creativity or his curiosity because he has a ton of both and I LOVE that about him. Any suggestions for how to maintain a healthy balance? Thanks so much!
Bumping this thread since I'm seeing some more posts involving this...Sorry Nick, if my request for more detail made you feel uncomfortable. thank you for your posts. have not read them all yet but have been on this site a few years and your posts are the most thought provoking. i feel you have given me real insight into my sons brain. has many phobias which we have been able to work through. we have moved recently and being in the car for some reason now scares him. thought it was because of the move and he didn't want to go somewhere new. his eyes always glued to window watching where we are going. reading one post you talked about going around curves and over hill scaring you because you thought you would be running into something. our new house in mountain area which is hilly with many curves. i now can prepare him when we go out due to your post. please keep writing. did you ever think about writing a book, i would buy it.Wow looks like that figurative nap is just what I needed...Yes. That's pretty much the scope of it. The p!sser is that the higher the stress level, that harder it is to access that database. Panic and meltdown usually ensue when the situation demands an immediate response but none can be found in time to save face.
Also - since autism is, almost by definition, marked by delays in social abilities, it pretty much stands to reason that social anxiety can easily become a by-product of autism upon a person realizing that he's seriously lagging in the (very much needed) social department.
From http://pathfindersforautism.org/articleItem.aspx?id=26:
"Under extreme stress, AS adults can exhibit very child-like manifestations. However, as individuals age, most develop a wide variety of coping skills and discover ways to mask their behavioral traits so that under many circumstances they can "pass for normal"...
"AS individuals rely heavily on rules, most of which they understand to be immutable. The one thing few of them understand and truly take to heart is that nearly all rules allow for exceptions to be made. In some cases, it may be possible to come up with clear guidelines governing when a given rule doesn't apply. With their encyclopedic data bases and given enough time to sift their view of a situation using those guidelines, AS individuals can take an almost infinite number of sub-rules and come up with the socially appropriate response.
"The operative words in situations like this are "data base" and "given enough time"."
I love the Sand lot! [quote="143hayden"]I love the Sand lot! Sorry alittle off topic!
[/quote]
That's OK -- at least I know someone caught on. 
I am so glad you are part of this board, you give so much insight and I appreciate it so much! My ds has gotten over much of his phobias, only major one left is clippers and scissors at haircutting time
A 9/93
B 9/00
C 7/02 ASD
Mommy
Nick,It sounds like it is the panic attack that prevents you from being articulate in unpredictable situations, not a difference in neurological wiring.
After all, you are very articulate in your replies on this forum and I assume you aren't dwelling for hours formulating a reply, that you are successfully answering off the cuff to people on this forum.
I was shy when I was younger also. It took many years before I could learn not to worry so much about what people thought about me. I used to sweat with fear when I was called into any office, for whatever reason, even a promotion! Yes, I was that anxious. I didn't start to learn to shed some anxiety until I was 35 or so!
So would addressing your social anxiety and panic attacks in such situations be the way to resolve it? Forgive my ignorance, I have never had this much communication with anyone with ASD so I'm learning.
Wow! What a great post! You have so much great insight! My son has a lot of phobias, but most of them stem from noise that he can't control. He hates cows because they mooo loud, flies because they remind him of bees and we freak out in the family if a bee is near, lol, vaccumes that arn't ours, lawn mowers, weed eaters, airplane sounds, hellicopter sounds, horns, sirens, bells, etc. What I can't figure out is why a certain quiet library upsets him. He really hates it when I tell him to quiet down. That's the only thing I can figure. Good luck with your book![quote="sunflowers"]It sounds like it is the panic attack that prevents you from being articulate in unpredictable situations, not a difference in neurological wiring.
After all, you are very articulate in your replies on this forum and I assume you aren't dwelling for hours formulating a reply, that you are successfully answering off the cuff to people on this forum.
[/quote]
You're sort of comparing apples to oranges there. I know it's confusing. If I knew the answer here I'd like to think I would have conquered the problem by now. No it doesn't take hours to respond to people in this forum, but I do get the opportunity to read over what I've written and edit it if necessary. A lot of times I'll edit it some more several minutes after I post it. Try doing that in a real conversation. The more you backpedal, the less seriously people take you. I have to know what to say, when to say it, and how to say it in advance, and scripting has made that much easier to do. It's like what swankyankee described in her post right before yours, and it is described in detail in the Social chapter of the composition that I am working on. It makes me appear to come up with answers "off the cuff" as long as I don't hit a snag. That's the whole idea. Like I said before, it's the price I pay for learning to wear a mask. A lot of times the mask works so well that people are in disbelief when it starts to come off.
Basically what I'm saying is that I am really good at covering it up, but I'm not perfect at it. I may never be perfect at it, and so if I'm going to continue to mainstream myself, I need a way mitigate the consequences when my mask does fail.
Wow, 5 pages in 4 hours. That has got to be a forum record.
Fascinating thread, Stickboy!!! So can you give me an example of a question that caught you off guard, that you could not script to, and what your reply was? I'm having a hard time distinguishing this ASD quality from a social anxiety disorder of some sort because I've known a couple peopel with social anxiety and they seem to react the same as you.
And no, I'm not testing you! LOL![quote="sunflowers"]So can you give me an example of a question that caught you off guard, that you could not script to, and what your reply was? I'm having a hard time distinguishing this ASD quality from a social anxiety disorder of some sort because I've known a couple peopel with social anxiety and they seem to react the same as you. [/quote]
Arrrggh..... You're killing me Smalls!
I can't think of one off the top of my head, but the next time it happens (and it will) I will be sure and take note of it. I just never really thought about keeping track of actual examples before. 
Hmmmm... Maybe I need to get the little Dustin Hoffman Rainman-type notebook started and write down everything... starting now...
Ahem...
24 Aug 2007: Someone who calls herself "sunflowers" gave me a complex on an online message board. Need to go lie down now..."
Wake me up in 2 hours.
I too had to research this a few years ago because I was confused as to how light could be sucked away. It turns out that to escape any gravitational field, you have to achieve a speed known as escape velocity. The escape velocity for earth is approximately 11,000 m/s at the surface; the space shuttle attains this speed when it leaves the earth's atmosphere. Since light behaves as a particle and has a given speed (usually rounded to 300 million m/sec), a black hole is defined as an object whose gravitational field is strong enough to constitute an escape velocity greater than the speed of light at any given point above its surface.
Since escape velocity increases as you get closer to an object's center of gravity, the black hole possesses a boundary called an event horizon where the escape velocity becomes greater than the speed of light. Any electromagnetic radiation (including light) inside the event horizon is trapped and cannot travel outward thorough space, thus the actual object creating the gravitational field is invisible to light-detecting instruments (including our eyes) and described appropriately as a "black hole."
It is unsure exactly how black holes form, but it is believed that most of them form from collapsed stars that grow so large and massive that their own gravity causes them to implode or cave in on themselves. In binary (two stars) or multiple star systems, when a star collapses into a black hole it will sometimes engulf its partner star(s) as the event horizon expands out and the other star(s) are pulled closer until finally they are absorbed into the black hole, light and all.
There is still a lot to be learned about black holes, and since they are so distant, most of the information we know about them comes from complex mathematical calculations rather than direct observation.
Wow! Thanks for the info. I can take at least some of that and translate it so that ds can understand it. Thanks so much! Oh, and my ds would thank you too!
So, he wants to visit a black hole. What I told him originally was that everything that gets near a black hole is sucked in, so you can't "visit" one. I used the analogy of a vacuum cleaner, but told him it was WAY more powerful than that (probably a million time or more!). Does that sound accurate?
I've found that I absolutely need to get my facts straight BEFORE telling him things because I don't want him to have the wrong information. It is extremely difficult to change his way of thinking once he latches onto a "fact". Plus, I feel the more informed he is about something - the better off he'll be!
It is theorized that the object in the center of the black hole is a small but very dense (tightly packed) mass. That means anything pulled into the gravitational field is ultimately pulled to this central mass and compacted along with it.Nick
Do you know anything about black holes? Apparently, my ds' swim teacher started talking to him about those when talking about outer space (she's very good at getting into his fantasy world and using that to teach and encourage him). Now, he can't stop talking about them and/or asking questions! I can tell this is going the way of a full-blown obsession pretty fast...
It's hard to answer any kind of questions when one feels under pressure, and that holds true for many people. Oftentimes we worry about what people may think about what we'll say or worry about how we're being perceived. Can you rehearse at home in advance answers to possible questions so that if you are confronted and asked questions,you can be reasonably ready with some answers?Remember, there are possibly thousands of people on this forum and you can start by educating us and telling us what you think are the pertinent questions to ask. In turn they may take your list of pertinent questions and use it educate their loved ones, friends, teachers, neighbors.
Nick, when you get your book published, maybe your co-workers will more readily understand that you ARE an expert/professional. Your insight on the topic of phobias continues to amaze me.
Otherwise, have you ever tried "the buddy system" -- finding someone to confide in at the workplace that can run interference for you?
[quote="sunflowers"] Can you rehearse at home in advance answers to possible questions so that if you are confronted and asked questions,you can be reasonably ready with some answers? [/quote]Yes. That's called scripting, and it's how I am able to converse with other people. It has taken me many years to do so, but I have enough information stored now that I can sometimes converse for up to 30 minutes or so if the other person says the right things to keep me going. As soon as they say something I don't have a script for, though, the system breaks down, you get the "awkward pause," and the first person to break under the awkwardness moves on to someone/somewhere else. Even though I've made it as long as 45 minutes before, I usually don't make it past 2 or 3 minutes, even with people I know well.
In a situation where the boss calls you into the office, usually I have no idea what I have done wrong so I am blindsided by the questions I'm asked. Thus I have no script because I do not know what questions are coming and I will start to panic. The panic often looks like guilt or shame from the outside, and even if the actions I am being reprimanded for were justified or misconstrued, I am unable to articulate my case because the panic attack screws up my ability to use logic. It gets to where the boss's office itself triggers a panic or shut down, so even if I call another meeting, I still get overtaken by panic even when I have rehearsed. I tried to get them to talk to me outside the office in a casual setting, but they would always get interrupted, which would screw up my train of thought.
So..... I'm still thinking, but so far everything I think of finds a way to self-destruct. But I know there's a happy medium somewhere. I know what you mean about people thinking AS is not a real disorder.
It's really a tough decision:
A) Do you do your best to look "normal" and fool people into thinking there's nothing wrong with you? It'll work for a while, but it doesn't last forever, and once sh!t starts hitting the fan, how are you supposed to defend yourself?
or...
B) You get your diagnosis in hand, and brief people ahead of time. All of your oddities may be covered, and you might even get special job placement. But right off the bat you will be stigmatized, because no one really understands what autism is, and rather than ask you the pertinent questions, they'd rather read what some "professional" has written, oblivious to the fact that everyone on the spectrum is different and what they read may not even apply to you.
This is what's commonly referred to as a conundrum, or a catch 22, i.e. both possible decisions are the wrong one. I hope someday I will find an option C to this puzzle, and when I do I hope I can lead others to it. Until then, I totally feel your pain.
Later guys.C) When 'it' does start hitting the fan and people start to quote to you what 'professionals' have written about you per se, tell them what pertinent questions to ask to educate them.
Just curious why C is not an option? Um.... that didn't go well for me the last time I tried it. I got the feeling that they felt they had made a mistake in hiring me. And I still wound up losing my job. Also, pertinent questions are kinda hard to answer in an articulate manner when you feel like you're under pressure.
Besides, most people don't even know what kinds of questions to ask.
Limits are necessary for obvious reasons, so it's important that he knows where those limits are ahead of time, and that they change as little as possible. That way when he indulges his interests, he's not always running into roadblocks that he didn't see coming. That's easier said than done, but that should probably be your basic goal in maintaining a healthy balance for both of you.
When there are storms about, I like to turn on to a weather station too (I watch the weather channel a lot
). This is mostly because their radar shows exactly where the storm is, and I can tell exactly where it's going. I can tell by looking at a storm on radar if it is possibly tornadic, and if so, where the rotation is. And since our Doppler radars can see down to street level now, I can tell exactly where and when the danger will occur, that way I don't have to just hunker down in the bathtub when the siren blows, wondering where the tornado is for 20 or 30 minutes. It's more a matter of being informed, because as long as I know what's going on, I just respond appropriately. It's when I'm uninformed that I start messing up and having problems. Any way you slice it, phobias suck. The side of my family that has the emetophobia is also the side with AS--grandpa, brother, and dad. They've struggled with this debilitating phobia all their lives, as have I, so in our cases at least, no amount of explaining or rationalizing could make it go away.
When I was about 10, I became obsessed with the telephone, running up the phone bill to an outrageous level. My fear somehow morphed into a fascination, leading to the end of that phobia (albeit at the cost of 0+ for the phone bill:)
As far as my not being a parent, nothing anyone here says can offend me, and I hope that I never offend anyone, either. I just found out how truly ignorant and misinformed people can be after reading an article on Reddit.com talking about AS and the following comments stating that it's not even a real disorder! How sad. At least people on this forum recognize Asperger's as a real disorder. I think we nonparents can offer insight into the disorder so parents can better understand their children, and you can help us by sharing your experiences and what has worked for you, as many of us grew up ignorant to AS and autism and were only recently diagnosed. It takes all types!
[quote="143hayden"]I finally found out that at school one of his classmates mom told him shes going to take him home with her and after some digging I realized she was using a figure of speech "Your so cute im going to take you home with me!" He took it literally and was terrified that this boys mother was going to kidnap him! I felt so bad for him.[/quote]
Definitely. Stuff like that is all sorts of scary when you don't yet know how to process figures of speech. Heck, I know what figures of speech are; I've heard almost all of them -- and sometimes I still get panicky when I hear certain ones at certain times, even when I know better. So I can certainly feel for Hayden.
He'll figure it out eventually, but I wish him the best in the meantime (however long that may be
).Here's the step-by-step story of the development of the floor phobia (and
weirdly, it is only specific to my home)
1) lst year I gave his old glider to a friend due with a baby and repalced it
with a big cushy armchair in his bedroom. (I prepared him ahead of time
to the best of my ability)
2)When he came home, he FREAKED out and wanted the chair gone. I
couln't do it. It took two big guys to bring it upstairs, and i am the only
adult here.
3) He refused to go in his room for about 3 days. We had to work
through this. I had to civer the chair with a sheet for a week, and getting
him past the threshold of his bedroom and steping on the floor became a
very difficult battle.
SO...
4)Soon he made peace with the chair--so much so that it is now a safety
zone for him from the floor!
5)but he overgeneralized his floor issues, and soon it extended to the
entire upstairs of our home (carpeted) and soon to the entire house
(wood floors) downstairs
6)he was already running in a panic from piece of furniture to piece of
furniture, begging to be carried (um, that's a no-he weighs 45 lbs when
he developed a phobia of airplanes flying over head. We live close
enough to a small-plane airport that this hapens often, but far away
enough that the planes are not loud at all. He became very OCD about
this and would scramble back on to the closest piece of furniture to get
off the floor everytime a plane flew over head. If we are outside, He stops
dead in his tracks and refuses to move, or he looks around for a staircase
or something to jump up on until the plane passes.
7) NOW, he claims the carpet is dirty (it's the cleanest carpet youve ever
seen) he complains that the color bothers him, any number of things...
8) I bought some floor cushions, and he will now sit on those--but he
RUNS in a panic to that safetyzone as well.
9) He will only stand to get dressed while on a floor cushion, the bed, or
the armchair. He hangs out ONLY on the sofa. Runs to the table for
dinner. Stands only on a stepstool in the bathroom, and drops his towel
and runs saying, "ah, ah ,ah, AAAH!" back to the chair in his room.
Some days it's not too bad, others it's really a very difficult problem....
So, if you have anymore ideas, no matter how "out there" I will consider
them all.
PS-I just spent money I needed for some other things on some huge area
rugs that he approved of heartily. One arrived today. I'll let you knowhow
it goes. I finally had to give into this request, because, I seriously can't
live like this anymore!
Although it is puzzling mama, my question is , Have you tried a nice soft pair of slippers for him??? My next question (from experience) is he afraid of bugs??? and has he ever seen a bug on the floor or other critter???
Thanks for bumping up this thread. You have tons of great info for all of us. I can't think of any incident that went along with any of these fears. They all happened the first time he stepped into one of these places and continue to this day. So we just stay away now. My only thought is maybe the sound vibrations are different, kind of like an echo effect. Any thoughts?My daughter has had all sorts of phobia type issues. It used to be the drive through carwash, dinosaurs (?), the dog, the cat (not big on the cat these days) and this last year it is flying bugs of all kinds, to the point where she did not want to go outside as that is where all the bugs are. If she sees a fly the screaming starts.
These things seem to change over time and I just try to keep myself calm for her sake
That is soooo true about them getting scared because of something theyve heard.
Ive been trying to teach my son stranger safety and got 'the safe side' dvd, which my son loves (he loves super chick). But anyway its got him asking about all the "dont knows' around and he gets nervous which id rather have then him going off with any old person since theres so many loonies now days!
But one night a couple of weeks ago he kept asking me ALL day long about the dont know thats going to take him away and he does ask me similar questions like this ALL the time, so I just told him theres no 'dont knows' here. But he started getting really frantic as the day went on insisting there was a dont know comming to take him away. So later he was in tears and literally freaking out as we were getting ready for bed and saying he dosnt want to go to school and I finally found out that at school one of his classmates mom told him shes going to take him home with her and after some digging I realized she was using a figure of speech "Your so cute im going to take you home with me!" He took it literally and was terrified that this boys mother was going to kidnap him! I felt so bad for him.
Then a few days later we were at an app of his and his nuerologist said hes going to take him home with him and asked if i take credit card and hayden backed away and started panicking. I felt bad for him and never thought too much about him taking things so literally but now I am more aware and it helps so much in understanding ALOT of stuff he does, more than i wouldve thought actually!
Nick I really like this picture of you, you look really handsome! The other pic was nice too especially cuz I like long hair [QUOTE=MamaKat] Nick, you are very thoughtful to bump this one up!
And, I'm sad to report thant Jasper is still afraid of the floor It's one of
those things that "stuck" it goes up and down in intensity, though. [/QUOTE]
Sorry about that. I can't help but be curious still about that one. Being afraid of the floor -- could it be taking it literally when he heard someone say "step on a crack, break your mother's back" ?Comical as it sounds, it could very easily be something along that line.
I remember in second grade (why did everything happen to me in second grade??) I developed several warts on my hands and legs. After several failed attempts to get rid of them, we went to this one doctor who said that his formula would get rid of them once and for all. That day we treated all of my warts with the stuff, then he put some on a twig that he had picked up off the ground. He took me outside and we buried the stick a low area behind his office. He said to keep treating the warts at home, and that by the time the twig began to rot, my warts would be gone. My warts vanished within a month, and this doctor told me that if I ever told anyone the secret, that the warts would all come back.
I had been so traumatized by other kids pointing out my warts, that I was horrified by the thought of them coming back, and even up into my teen years I would refuse to tell what happened that day. Even though I sort of knew that what the doctor had told me was basically a placebo, I still couldn't shake the fear of jinxing the cure. I was in college before I finally shared the story (after I had heard my mom tell someone the gist of what had happened, and realized that it was not as big a secret as it had been made out to be).
When I think back to that, it makes me realize how sometimes something taken literally and to heart can be tough to shake off,