twins question... | Autism PDD
Fred - I do think your girls are probably more than likely reinforcing one
anothers bad habits. As kids, my sister and I were so much alike, that
when we played it was almost like a well-rehearsed symphony. We didn't
need to provide much context to our speech with one another because we
knew not only what the other one was thinking, but what they would be
saying next. And, because there's such a high comfort level with one
another, there is definitely a tendancy to shun outsiders and not invite
them into the play (why do so and ruin all the fun?). Fortunately, there
were several kids we virtually grew up with from day one and who for all
intents and purposes were "part of the family", so we were somewhat
forced to bring other kids "into our world".
I would strongly encourage you to separate them next year in
Kindergarten based on my personal experiences as an identical twin. It's
so critical for them to begin forging their own identities at an early age,
particularly because they have the ASD element to also contend with. I
also think it would be extremely beneficial in addressing some of their
language issues. By being separated from one another for a block of time
during the day, they will have no other choice than to interact with other
kids. That's my 2 cents worth from one who's been there.
shenom, it's so true. We were at OT a couple weeks ago, and Evie started playing with another little girl while Abbie was in therapy. They were playing so nice - ring around the rosie, pretending to be butterflies and flying around the waiting room, etc - Evie was demure, a little shy, didn't talk much, but was interacting very nicely with this girl (for her).
Then the door opens and Abigail comes barging into the waiting room. Evie sees her, and immediately forgets the other little girls and starts in with the very loud, monotonous talking, and Abigail responds in turn, and soon they are both talking in their loud, autistic sounding voices talking all of this silly, esoteric, semi-scripted nonsense that while the other little girl just looked on in confusion and finally wandered away.
As their new SLP said, they have the 'tools' to interact with typical kids - they just need motivation and, probably most importantly, practice!
Thanks for all of the thoughts, folks. I think even their mother is coming around to the idea of seperating them this fall.
Fred,
You mentioned that they are apart sort of in the different groups / same room situation this summer for camp. How do their teachers/counselors think they do apart as opposed to together? You might wish to ask them specifically, because if they can demonstrate how much better the girls do socially when separated it might carry some weight with your dw.
definite articulation issues here. But different problems. But Nikolas does do some stimming and Andrew copies it, especially away from home (school). Looking back now I'm pretty sure the wheel spinning Andrew did at 18 months was him copying Nikolas, not him doing it on his own.Given that I have 1 NT and 1 ASD, I think the "twin thing" is the best thing that could ever have happened for my kids. C has a role model to emulate, and I think he has progressed further given he has a twin than if he was a singleton. C has a nice balance of playing independently and playing with other kids, my NT son is one of those super demanding kids that wants someone interacting with him and playing with him all the times. He is a total extrovert that gets his energy from others. What this means is that he is engaging his brother all the time. This is great for C. (Of course, too much engagement and they start to fight, but I can deal with that - most of the time LOL). His brother is also little mr. popularlity and there are always kids coming to the house for playdates. The rule is that if R gets invited to another child's house for a playdate, then he goes alone. C was actually invited at the end of this year and did his 1st "away playdate" alone. However, if a playdate comes to our house, regardless of whose classmate/friend the child is, everyone plays. Many parents know we have twins and invite both boys. We typically do an average of 2 playdates per week.
Our primary driver for separation of the kids is the impact that C's school behavior can have on R. When C gets upset, R gets upset. When C is reprimanded, R feels he needs to take on defense attorney role. When C loses it and has a complete meltdown and all of the kids are staring, R is embarressed. Outside of school C can pass for NT, so it isn't so big a deal in extracurricular activities.
I think that having twins both ASD would be a bit of a different situation. I have NT twin nieces who went to speech for two years. It was primarily articulation issues. They could understand each other but they were not easily understood by others outside the family. They spent all of their time together and reinforced each other's bad habits, so those bad speech habits became ingrained and took time to change. They were together in preschool but the speech therapist recommended that they be separated for kindergarten and exposed more to other kids so that they could model better habits. I can see where 2 ASD twins would do the same in terms of reinforcing bad habits in absense of NT role models to emulate. My nieces were separated in kindergarten and there was a tremendous improvement in their speech and by end of kindergarten they were done with speech therapy completely.
Yeah, no articulation issues with the girls, but they definitely reinforcec each other's quirky, autistic play styles and language patterns.
I have seen it in kids at the daycare, yes. I have ALWAYS heard it too. My SD in the 60's always put twins in separate classrooms, as a rule. They felt one was always overshadowed by the other and it was better to let the one express him or herself more independently.
Also, my nephews developed a "twin-talk" that nobody else EVER understood ... so they too were separated!
The only experience I have with twins is a friend of mine...we have been friends since highschool so I have watched the twins grow up. They are identical boys and NT.
When they were younger they seemed more attached to each other...they would come over to play with my son (Logan) and they almost seemed to have there own language, lol...they never wanted to do anything unless they both could do it...I don't know how much of that was my friend...she ALWAYS dressed them the same and bought them everything the same. They honestly were like 1 child to me.
They never went to preschool and when they started kindergarten their mom demanded that they be in the same class together. It went just fine, but they were still very attached to each other. I remember her telling me that the teacher was talking to her a lot about separating them next year to see how well they did apart...she was upset, sad, furious! But in the end she agreed. I can't tell you how different it became. I think the first time in their lives they realized that they didn't have to like the same thing as the other...the were learning basically that it was okay to be different after being the same all those years.
These boys now are amazing...they are complete extroverts...have these amazing personalities! I tell them all the time they are definitely headed for Hollywood! They still have a lot of the same interests, but they definitely each have their own things they enjoy too! They were in the same class again last year because there was only 1 class, but they did great.
I'm just telling you from an outside view, that it seemed to me these boys were, I don't want to say withdrawn, but very much into each other...didn't notice there was this whole big world of fun and friends until they didn't have each other.
Again, I am only one story and from an outside view, but thought it might help a little.
I would say most definitely when it comes to my twins. They gravitate towards each other, are each others best friend, literally read each others mind, and have communicated with each other nonverbally and with gibberish since they were 8-9 months. And by nonverbally I mean they can look at each other and just know what the other one is thinking. I believe it has been a huge factor in the speech delay along with the low muscle tone in their face and it has also been a factor in what the drs tell me is poor social skills. Their social skills with each other is excellent. When they are seperated they show much more interest in other children, when they are together it is all about each other. We went to the beach one day and a little boy came up to Nikolas, Nikolas did the usual run away thing, but I noticed about 5 minutes later Nikolas and Andrew went up to the little boy together. They both waved and said hi to the little boy and started trying to play with him and interact with him. Huh, that was interesting, it was almost like a just a minute I have to go get my other half and I'll be back and then we can play type deal. The other night Nikolas went to bed with DH, Andrew went in said some gibberish to Nikolas, Nikolas gibbered back and then the next thing DH knew Nikolas got out of bed and Andrew got in the spot Nikolas had just occupied. It was like he told Andrew I want to sleep with Daddy and Nikolas said ok. For this reason we are putting them in different classrooms this coming year, I am interested and scared about it all at the same time. They have never been seperated before for any real amount of time or when neither DH or I was with them, so I am very concerned about it. But I think it will help them too. I wonder if they are too young, but I am hoping we see a real growth. Do I think they would have the delays and issues they have if they were not twins? No I am absolutely convinced that they wouldn't.
I wanted to add that before age 3 they didn't care about communicating with anyone else, so they put no effort into it, I think because they had each other and really didn't care about the rest of the world. It has just been in the last year or so (and really since they got a little sister) that some light bulb went off somewhere and they decided it might be a good thing to learn to communicate with others and now they really try to.
Yeah, the girls do that 'mind reading' thing too, it's scary. When they play together, they barely need to talk, the certainly don't need to provide any context about what they're saying with each other, and they just giggle and laugh hysterically about each other's silly utterences. If they were to play with a typical kid the way they play with each other, the other kid would be very confused.
They're semi-seperated in summer camp right now - each in a different group (though, I believe the are in the same room) and are not having any problems at all. This is an NT 'Kindercamp', so this bodes well, I think, for seperating them in the fall.
Hopefully that's what the school will recommend.
ETA: in answer to Linda's question,
Well for me personally (and this is just my opinion and what I observe with my two) it makes me question the whole ASD thing. THe drs always ask me, do they have a best friend. Well yes they do, each other, but that doesn't count. And of course he does not take into consideration that they really don't have the opportunity to make friends. We don't do play dates or anything like that, the only place is school, and at least this past year that was not the ideal place to make friends. Although Nikolas did come home talking about a little boy named Chris, and I observe this Chris hitting Nikolas at a field trip we went on, not much of a friend. So the dr makes his little marks and comes back with they do not have normal social skills they are ASD. I'm not so convinced by that argument. If they have a normal social relationship with each other it counts for nothing so that makes them ASD???? hmmmmm, I don't know about that. Not to say that all twins diagnosed with ASD are diagnosed incorrectly because some dr does not understand the whole twin thing, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some of them are.
I too sometimes wonder if the twin thing isn't contributing to their delays, or pushing them over the edge of the spectrum, but their gross motor issues always remind me that there is definitely something neurological going on with them. And then there're all of the examples of twins who are NT as can be, like Kristy's non-asd son and some of the others that have been mentioned.
I do wonder though, since they are testing within the normal range for language now and showing some social interest with peers, where would they be if they were singletons and had been around other kids their whole lives? Interesting to ponder, but not very practical :)
No not practical at all, I try hard not to think like that, although once in a while it sneaks up on me. Then I also think but then they wouldn't have this type of connection that they have with each other, and I can't help but think how extraordinary that is. I don't think they would trade the other one in, they would choose to be a twin if they had the choice. I think. LOL! But I would guess it is probably a combination, twin thing causing some of it and the neuro thing causing some with your girls. I'm not sure if there is truly something neurological going on the with my twins or not, the neuro told me no, and he thought it was strictly a twin thing. The dev pedi that we recently saw did not agree with the neuro. The neuro saw them just after their 3rd birthday. He took the behaviors he saw as being a typical 3 year old along with being a twin and born 10 weeks early. THis dev pedi though had them diagnosed before he ever saw them and would not entertain the twin idea at all. So I really truly don't know, I think we'll know by the time they are 6. At least I hope so.
I did want to add about that mind reading thing, the boys started that at 2 weeks old in the NICU. Nikolas was asleep in his crib, I was holding Andrew, Nikolas' heartrate started to fall as he slept, so the nurse came over and accidentally stimulated Andrew by shaking his feet while I held him, and Nikolas immediately woke up crying his eyes out. It was the strangest thing. Also they would poke Andrew in a totally different area of the NICU and Nikolas would wake up from sleep crying. They did this type of thing alot.
Well even though T is not part of a set of of twins, I feel the same way -- she socializes with her sibs, plays dramatic play VERY interactively with them ...
It makes me wonder how much is driven by SID, or how much by social need?
With T, I think if you could take away the SID, maybe even just the auditory ID, she'd be otherwise fine.
Interesting article, but it doesn't really resonate with me. I'll caveat that by the fact that I have two little extroverts (just like mommy I guess). I don't think that being a twin mattered one way of the other when it came to socialzing once they started school. However, they have always been exposed to other kids. We've also always had them separated in school but together for extracurricular activities (camp, t-ball, soccer, gymnastics).
One of my best friends (a guy) is a twin (boy-boy fraternal), and he is very introverted/shy (as is his brother). He said that one of the things he liked best about being a twin was that it made him more confident and outgoing in social situations because he always knew that when he walked into a party or social situation that he would always have at least one friend. He felt that walking into social situations as a part of a pair as opposed to arriving alone and feeling awkward until he found someone he knew made him feel much less anxious about social situations.
I'm pulling out a twin book now, and this one book says that "the more twins play exclusively with each other, the more difficult they may find it to make friends and join in the play of other children." At the same time, the book (supporting my point about my friend above) states that "twins may be less afraid when their parents leave them than other kids because they have each other" and "the confidence they gain from each other's presence means that many twins are extremely sociable and outgoing and may take in stride new experiences such as birthday parties that might be more of a challenge to a child on their own."
Like anything else in life, I think that being a twin has some pros and cons. Somethings will be eaiser for our kids because they are twins and other things will be harder.
[QUOTE=kristys]I'm pulling out a twin book now, and this one book says that "the more twins play exclusively with each other, the more difficult they may find it to make friends and join in the play of other children." At the same time, the book (supporting my point about my friend above) states that "twins may be less afraid when their parents leave them than other kids because they have each other" and "the confidence they gain from each other's presence means that many twins are extremely sociable and outgoing and may take in stride new experiences such as birthday parties that might be more of a challenge to a child on their own."
[/QUOTE]
Wow - that resonates here. All of those statements ring true for me. Interesting. The first sentence, especially, since my girls are each other's exclusive playmate. Seems like this is a 'known thing'. I really need to get those girls interacting with other kids besides each other! When they play, they are so attuned to each other that they really don't need to communicate in any meaningful way in order to have a grand ol' time. They confuse the hell out of other kids, but to each other, they're transparent as glass.
Kristy, does that book have any references to back up those statemetns? Woudl love to give something to their mother, who still thinks that the girls should not be seperated (in school), citing the argument described in your second quotation.
going to a preschool this year and don't have playdates other than each
other. They play a lot at home with each other but at their preschool they
do seperate stuff. They do not and have not had any delays with
milestones.
I took my asd ds to tons of groups and playdates when he was little. It
only occured to me once I had the twins that they just pick up the stuff
without effort that I had to teach my ds over and over. It was a real eye
opener.
So in general I would not say being a twin will slow down development
but maybe if something else is already going on (like a pdd) being a twin
matters.
O.K., I'm an identical twin myself, and a mother to fraternal b/g twins, so I'm going to jump in here. I'll start with my own experiences first.
Growing up as a twin was great. You had a built-in playmate, and it definitely helped ease any social anxieties, for the reasons Kristy's book states. However, the one thing I did discover once I was out on my own, is that I honestly did not know how to make friends.....really. I never had to growing up. We lived in the same town all 18 years, I was in the same school system all 12, and had several kids I went to school with all of those twelve years. My circle of friends started in first grade, and in many ways never changed. My parents are also very social creatures, and even prior to school we spent a lot of time at other kids homes playing and interacting. Once in school, we did tend to hang out together the majority of the time, and "shared" friends. My mother was wise enough to split us up in class from day one (something I strongly recommend). In hindsight, I think it would have been really good for us to each have at least one "thing" that was our own (dance, swimming, art, whatever). However, since we were/are so much alike, we tend to gravitate towards the same interests....even today.
I really think it's important to start at a young age splitting twins up and allowing them to hone their social skills apart from one another. I done this already with my kids, and I'm already seeing the benefits. My son is very comfortable going off on his own in a social situation without his sister strapped to his side, and vice-versa. The one advantage I do have over you Fred, is that his sister is NT and has great language. So she's actually "pulling him up" rather than him "pulling her down". They've never really had any form of a "secret" language, I believe primarily because there was such a wide gap between the two when they were younger.
I will say, I do now know how to make friends
I'm at work now, I'll check books when I get home but I don't think there are specific references. However, I have a bunch of twin books I bought when I was pregnant and they all say the same thing. (Which of course begs the question of why I have so many, but I'm a book lover at heart and have a bit of a "book habit.")
What does your school say about together v. apart? I thought most schools were very pro-separation and that it typically took some extensive negotiation on the part of the parents to keep twins together in class. I actually don't know any twins kept together in class. In our school this year there were 8 kindergarten classes (4 AM / 4 PM) and at least 7 sets of twins that I know of, all separated.
Here is an article that discusses pros and cons of together v. separate.
http://multiples.about.com/cs/twinsinschool/a/twinsinschool. htm
This is no magic answer. I feel like you need to take a paper and write down pros/cons of together and pros/cons of separate and decide which factors are most important for your girls next year.
If separated, they may be a bit off kilter at the start of the year, but they may advance more socially as the year goes on. Which is more important to you? It's a very personal decision...
This is just an observation as I don't have twins. My oldest son has 4 sets of twins in his grade (going into 5th). 2 sets are a boy and a girl. They have always been together in the same classroom since Kindergarten. The other 2 sets are boys. They have always been in separate classrooms. I'm guessing that the twins that are different genders weren't separated because it's assumed they will naturally seek out other friends who are the same gender that they are. ?????Do twins, especially twins who have been somewhat isolated from other children (perhaps they didn't attend day-care or have many play dates), tend to have some initial difficulty socializing with their same aged peers once school begins? I just came across this article by accident and it made me go hmmm.... It's not backed up with any verifying facts, though, so I don't know if this is a real phenomena or not.
http://multiples.about.com/cs/twinsinschool/a/aaspeechdelay. htm
I can't say if it happens across the board, but I was friends with a set of twins in school and it was the case with them. Even as we got older, they tended to have smaller circle of friends than us non-twins. My daughter is also friends with a set of twins, a boy and a girl and I know the little girl's mom was thrilled when her daughter and my daughter became friends because, until that point, her daughter really had no desire to play with anyone other than her brother and vice versa. The kids were all in 2nd grade this last year and the mother made the decision to separate them in school this past year. It did wonders for the two twins in terms of making friends, becoming their own individuals, etc. In my experience, with twins that stayed at home with me (and their mild PDD-NOS brother) - with few playdates (ask me how hard it is to take three babies/toddlers anywhere!)...They don't seem to have a social delay - but my girls have a serious language delay.
I believe the pragmatic/language delay comes from imitating their Brother - and the speech delay (horrible, horrible articulation) comes from their twin speak.
Bug actually speaks much more clearly than the girls.
They are starting intense speech therapy in the fall (they qualified for 90!!! minutes a week) and nt preschool (went with a private preschool near our home, instead of the special education preschool). I decided what they needed More than five days a week special ed was nt peers to play princess and barbie with ;)
I hope their language just takes off in the fall...
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