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OK- numbers aside, does anyone know a MR autistic child and can describe him/her? Is there some obvious sign of behavior or lack of understanding that is key?
fred-he had a Vines and Bailys (sorry for the unexact names) IQ tests- they had cognitive and adaptive ratings only (no verbal vs non-verbal distiction that I am aware of) the child psychologist said these were appropriate for a nonverbal child and that she did not want to label him MR at this time and to retest when he is five. (PS- IMHO I would not consider a child that knows abcs, math to be MR)
I do not have the "appropriate intervention" in place. I try to wing some mommy-therapy plus OT,ST where there is not much progress. Trying to get prof ABA.
I don't know the answer to your question...I'm asking the same thing myself, in some ways. My son had the same tests, and didn't score well at all, AFAIK. (Still waiting to hear specifics on that)
He's three, can't count, or rather, communicate knowlege of numbers, colors, ABC's, etc. However, it might be his lack of speech, rather than actual lack of ability in these areas. I just don't know yet, but assessments say that he's got a significant cognitive delay. He has not been IQ tested, and I don't know when/if he will be.
Langauge impairments get in the way of our kids doing well on standard IQ tests. My daughters "gained" ~20 and ~30 IQ points between the ages of 3.0 and 4.0 and went from moderately mentally retarded to average and low-average. I'm guessing they might do even a bit better, now. BTW - their "right interventions" was maturity, developmental preschool, and language therapy (in that order of importance, if I had to guess).
One clue might be the spread between the non-verbal and verbal portions of the IQ test. With the girls, both times they were tested, they scored over 20 points higher on the non-verbal portion of the test. If there's a big spread between the two scores, then it's likely that you're measuring the language delay rather than the actual intelligence (whatever that is).
I think another hint might be the child's ability to learn. Do concepts come easily? Have the learned their shapes and colors, numbers, etc from watching Sesame street? that sort of thing.
I'm also curious about pre-school academics. For example, does a child's academic knowledge imply anything about their possibility of being metally retarded. For example, if a 4 year old child has taught themselves to read, has simple mathemtical concepts down, knows all of their colors, etc - can you assume that the child is not MR, even if the IQ tests says that they are?
IQ tests are like the SAT's...they measure rough potential. As many as 30% of the scores from IQ tests may be inaccurate. It is possible that your child will score much better if he gets the appropriate interventions. A very intelligent person could score as being MR if having a bad day and not focusing on the tests or just a bad test taker. I am not sure how you can know NOW if your son really is MR. Psychiatrists and doctors recognize those with MR as having developmental delays...which is what PDD's are....so I think MR is not a definitive ability level and that it is quite possible your child will have better scores after he gets the help he needs. I would not let the IQ # get to you.
Also, there are different types of intelligence. A person may score below average on an IQ test and do extremely well (beyond thier measured potential) in some area(s).
Anna, Actually our school district autism coach contradicts what you say. She claims IQ is only a measure of what a child is CURRENTLY capable of, NOT their potential!
I say potential because I do not believe the # to be all telling and many times there are chilren & adults with measured high IQ's who do not perform well and those will measured lower IQ's who surpass thier peers. IQ is a "predictor for educational achievement". I say "potential" in that I do not think there is a way to get an extremely accurate measure of one's true intelligence and ability. Certainly not in one number, or even FIVE or SEVEN. It is an odd thing to try to measure and summarize, even.[QUOTE=Cin0516]
OK- numbers aside, does anyone know a MR autistic child and can describe him/her? Is there some obvious sign of behavior or lack of understanding that is key?
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Well, I knew a mentally retarded teenaged girl when I was a teenager myself. She lived around the corner and used to hang around with the rest of the kids, sometimes. It's trite, but the only way I can describe it is that she was a young woman who had the mannerisms, language, and emotional regulation of a young child. Not quite what you're looking for, as she must have been 16-17 years old, but she's the only one that I have known.
fred- I wonder how different a MR person and an ASD/MR person are? (PS- H has relatively "few" ASD behaviors- more deficits on language.)
fred- I wonder how different a MR person and an ASD/MR person are? (PS- H has relatively "few" ASD behaviors- more deficits on language.)
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Just going by my BIL, here are the autistic traits I see.
He likes to quote lines from his favorite tv shows, repeat random information. Its not really echolalia though, he doesn't do it without meaning, but his favorite is to watch Emeril and say BAM! right along with him. If you talk about Emeril he will say BAM!, but he doesn't go around the house just doing that all day long. He does it in context. But he can't read.
He collects things, pens, flashlights, all the sample credit cards that are no good that come in the mail. He is obsessive with this. Once his mom told him he couldn't have a particular card and he bugged her to death about it until she gave in and gave it to him just to get him to stop asking. This wasn't that long ago either.
He can be anti-social with strangers. He will turn his head away. He doesn't like going to new places. he will suddenly have a pain somewhere to get out of going or doing something he doesn't want to do. Its actually pretty funny once we figure out he was faking it. He has to warm up to people. He actually warmed up to me pretty quickly.
He is a neat freak. If you slightly move anything on his dresser he knows it and has to immediately put it back. He likes us to come and visit but he is very vigilant that the kids do not go in his room or touch anything of his.
The things he does not have, stimming, spacing out although if he doesn't like what is going on he will get quiet and try to withdraw but he doesn't stare off in to space the way Nikolas can, true echololia, he does respond to questions and people as long as he knows you, he responds to his name and is very responsive to social stimuli. Now if he doesn't know you or is mad he will not respond and will totally tune you out, but its voluntary.
I do not know how old he was before he had speech, but I think his mom told me he was 6. He is still extremely difficult to understand. Sort of sounds like he is talking with mush in his mouth. He hit all milestones late and he was equally delayed across the board.
THat's all I can think of right now, I hope that helped answer your question.
Yes, that helps thanks. I dont think H is globally delayed like it sounds like a mod-to-severe MR person (without ASD) might be. My DD scored very low on the IQ test, but we knew from seeing her everyday, the score was wrong. She is due to be tested again (we have to do it every 3 years) and we expect the MR label to come off on her next eval. She is very smart, but when she was tested she was still at the age of not complying with strangers. Now that she is a 2nd grader, and mainstreamed with good grades, there is no way MR can be put on her eval again. I have been told by alot of school distrcit staff that happens alot when kids are young and have autism. As they age and cooperate better, the label comes off alot of times. DOn't stress about it, just think of it as another label that will allow more services at this important time in your childs development.[QUOTE=Linda11567][QUOTE=Cin0516]fred- I wonder how different a MR person and an ASD/MR person are? (PS- H has relatively "few" ASD behaviors- more deficits on language.)
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Just going by my BIL, here are the autistic traits I see.
He likes to quote lines from his favorite tv shows, repeat random information. Its not really echolalia though, he doesn't do it without meaning, but his favorite is to watch Emeril and say BAM! right along with him. If you talk about Emeril he will say BAM!, but he doesn't go around the house just doing that all day long. He does it in context. But he can't read.
He collects things, pens, flashlights, all the sample credit cards that are no good that come in the mail. He is obsessive with this. Once his mom told him he couldn't have a particular card and he bugged her to death about it until she gave in and gave it to him just to get him to stop asking. This wasn't that long ago either.
He can be anti-social with strangers. He will turn his head away. He doesn't like going to new places. he will suddenly have a pain somewhere to get out of going or doing something he doesn't want to do. Its actually pretty funny once we figure out he was faking it. He has to warm up to people. He actually warmed up to me pretty quickly.
He is a neat freak. If you slightly move anything on his dresser he knows it and has to immediately put it back. He likes us to come and visit but he is very vigilant that the kids do not go in his room or touch anything of his.
The things he does not have, stimming, spacing out although if he doesn't like what is going on he will get quiet and try to withdraw but he doesn't stare off in to space the way Nikolas can, true echololia, he does respond to questions and people as long as he knows you, he responds to his name and is very responsive to social stimuli. Now if he doesn't know you or is mad he will not respond and will totally tune you out, but its voluntary.
I do not know how old he was before he had speech, but I think his mom told me he was 6. He is still extremely difficult to understand. Sort of sounds like he is talking with mush in his mouth. He hit all milestones late and he was equally delayed across the board.
THat's all I can think of right now, I hope that helped answer your question.
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My SIL's BIL is MR. He is around 37 years old. He has the same qualities that Linda described. Another possibly autistic quality I wanted to add is that he can be honest to a fault. He will sometimes say things without considering how it makes another person feel. For example, he told my SIL he didn't like her wedding dress because she didn't look like a princess. (It was a fitted dress, rather than one with a full skirt.) My oldest son sometimes says things that sound a bit rude because he's being overly honest about his true thoughts.
[QUOTE=Cin0516]Evie- H cant do any of those things either. He needs hand-over-hand or assistance to play appropriately with some toys like shape sorters and pegs. There are some toys he will play with independently. He seems to only want to do what he wants to do....so it is hard to say how much he understands/knows. If he understands and knows stuff, he is not displaying.[/QUOTE]
Jase does okay with pegs, especially if they line up (his favorite thing to do, lol), but he doesn't get shape sorting toys. He just pulls the top off and dumps the shapes out. He won't put them in, even without the top. *shrug*
He also resists hand-over-hand assistance, since I think he feels forced to do things, rather than it being assistance. So I avoid doing that with him.
Evie- H cant do any of those things either. He needs hand-over-hand or assistance to play appropriately with some toys like shape sorters and pegs. There are some toys he will play with independently. He seems to only want to do what he wants to do....so it is hard to say how much he understands/knows. If he understands and knows stuff, he is not displaying.GTTO- that is so cool to hear- do you have a link or article on that? I would love to read it! Which tests are more fair? They're thinking only 5% of autistic children actually have an intellectual disability, now that they've got fairer tests.An IQ score is not like taking blood and finding out if a child is anemic. The results depend A LOT on the particular day the child took the test, the abilities of the tester, whether or not the subtests all were in about the same range, whether or not the child is mature enough to attend, etc. I wouldn't worry about something like mild MR at this early stage. In fact, even if a child IS mild MR, that is such a tiny disability compared to any autism disability that it is missed in many typical kids. There are probably adults you deal with on a daily basis whose IQ's are below 70 and you don't know it. In the case of your child, that score is most likely not valid. IQ scores DO sometimes go up. Sometimes A LOT. However, that's not to say that a child's native intelligence goes up. It's just that the child matures to the point that he can validly TAKE the test (pay attention, cooperate, express his answers fully, etc.).
However, I found the title of your post interesting. I think there's definitely a difference between scoring MR and being MR. There's also a difference between scoring not MR but actually functioning as an MR individual. I believe my 16yo fits that description. His IQ score is average, but his ASD status, particularly his difficulty in languge, makes it very hard for him to function normally in life. He FUNCTIONS as a mentally retarded individual. This is not true of all teens with ASD -- not even the majority -- but it IS true for my son. So that is another way in which IQ test scores can be deceptive.
Typically, when a NT person takes an IQ test, their scores are relatively consisten across subscales. (If for example, 3 subscales make up the language portion of a test, and an NT person scores an average of 100 on that portion of the test, they might have 95 on one subscale, 100 on another and 105 on the third). MR people score the same way, the scores are just lower across the board. An ASD child, however, night also score 100 like the NT person in my example, but the ASD child might score 100 on one subscale, 5 on another and 200 on the third. This is called "scatter" and occurs when many subscales are 1 -2 standard deviations from the mean. If your child has taken an IQ test, ask for a breakdown of the subscale scores, and specifically ask about the scatter. If there is alot of scatter, request a non-verbal IQ test (LEITER-R, TONI, UNIT). Those tests give a much more realistic picture for an ASD child, espically one who is behind in communication. Hope this helps.
Take care,