I’ve changed my mind.... | Autism PDD

Sorry for posting so much lately, but I just had to get this out there.

Awhile back, I posted about some concerns I had with my older boy, whom I was thinking of getting evaluated for Asperger's.  I decided to put it off, thinking that it wasn't really affecting him all that much, but I got a rude awakening today.

He'd been showing some real problems making friends with kids, and in playing with his brothers (his way or the highway is his motto).  Anyways, to cap it all off, tonight, he snuck out of his room when he was supposed to be sleeping, grabbed up our three month old kitten, and took him up to the top bunk of his bed.  Max is terrified of stuff that high, so I guess he tried to get away.  Bran didn't like this, so he grabbed the poor thing by the tail and wouldn't let go.  He hurt him really badly (poor thing can't bend his tail in the middle), to the point that he actually defecated on the bed.

Needless to say, this was disturbing to us!  Eventually, we sat him down and talked with him once again about the inappropriateness of what he had done.  Finally, exasperated, I asked him, "Do you even care that Max is hurt?"  And he flat out said, "No, I don't."

This is a positively SCARY display of a lack of empathy, imo, and I'm going to get him in to see a psych ASAP and start evaluating him for Asperger's after all.  He's had issues to this point, and yeah, he will likely realize he's being tested, but this has to be done, and I really think it could help him, because we are certainly having no success in teaching him empathy, turn-taking, sharing, etc.  This in addition to his "little professor" tendencies, his difficulty relating to peers (but not adults), not to mention a younger brother already diagnosed with autism, I think I have to have this done. He's really a great kid, and I don't understand this behavior at all! 

It may turn out that something else (like a personality disorder) is going on, but I really think the Aspie thing is more likely.  What do you all think?  I don't want to make the wrong decision AGAIN, like I did by talking myself out of having Jason evaluated for so long.

I'm really upset, and I just had to get this off my chest. 

P.S.  Max just woke up from a little -uh- catnap, and his tail seems to be doing much better.  Good thing, since our vet doesn't take emergency calls unless it's drastic!  I was worried his tail might be broken, but he's starting to lift it up and bend it more.  *whew*  But it's still "hands off" for Bran until further notice.

Evie39276.9727199074Yes, absolutly get him evaluated, its too bad he waited so long, it took a long time for me to get my HFA label back in the mid-late 80;s i was diagnosed with just a basic learning disability until later when they realized it was HFA, i really hope they can help u. I never hurt my pet (on purpose) but i totaly lacked empathy in childhood, and treated my friends like tools, they were simply their to do what i said, build the fort according to my specifications, make the go cart look like what i wanted and had to go along with my ideas. Not a way to keep friends, i cant beleive i kept my friends as long as I did, until high school b4 they finally ditched me, but i was lucky enough to be the, well i guess... smart 1 of the group, the 1 with the ideas, the 1 who could build the forts and go carts, i just needed them to do the labor, and i cant beleive i treated ppl like that, little or not.

I really hope u can get through to him, it was 2 late for me, but maby he can be taught to treat ppl the way they should b treated so that he wont go thru the painful ostrsizim that i did growing up.

I wish u the best of luck, and i hope he does better at keeping childhood friends then I did, i know it was hard, i cant say i could help it nessissarily, i did not understand what i was doing was wrong, but now im an adult and looking back i feel great shaim and saddness for the way i treated others. I have friends from high school and collage, but deep down a part of me wishes i could go back and make it so the kids i grew up with would accept me to this day.its a great idea - good for you for being on top of things though I have seen many children - NT - be quite unempathetic too 

I hope that I can get some help for him, too.  I can't believe I've talked myself out of getting him evaluated.  You'd think I would've learned that lesson, but no.  I guess I just have a hard time even facing the idea that I might have two kids on the spectrum.  It's a sorry excuse, though, and I've just got to suck it up and do what's best for him.

Thank you for sharing your experiences with me...that doesn't sound like it's a comfortable thing to talk about, so I really appreciate it. 

[QUOTE=KajoliT]its a great idea - good for you for being on top of things though I have seen many children - NT - be quite unempathetic too  [/QUOTE]

I don't know if I'd call it being "on top of things", though, Kajoli.  If I really were, I think I would have had him evaluated when it first crossed my mind.  God, I suck.

Try not to be so hard on yourself.  Age 7 is actually still pretty early for someone who is high-functioning.  My son was diagnosed at age 7, in fact, although the evaluation process started at age 5 or so. 

I personally feel that siblings of autistics should be evaluated as a matter of course or at least monitored more closely, if nothing else to give the parents a little peace of mind.  Even if your son doesn't end up with a diagnosis, you'll have a clear picture of his strengths and weaknesses that will no doubt prove helpful.

Good luck with everything!

My little cuz is 12 and just got diagnosed with aspergers even though the signs were always there no one thought to get him evaluated till this year. 

 You are on the ball~get rolling and keep us updated:)

I think it's good to get him evaluated.  Some kids are just mean to animals but the lack of empathy is scary and definitely something to address.

Laurie

The inability to make friends is indeed a worry. I agree with you Evie that
there may be something there. I do think with the right interventions, it will
help.
I do agree with Norway Mom that all siblings of autistics should be
monitored more closely. Do not be hard on yourself. I think you are doing
all the right things for your kids.

My nephew's best friend was just diagnosed with AS at the end of 2nd grade. 

I'm actually surprised when I hear of a possible AS diagnosis for kids who are only 3 or 4.  When we were going through this with my oldest son, I was told kids weren't diagnosed with AS until they were at least 5 or 6 years old, and sometimes even later.  I wouldn't think the difficulty with pragmatics, the mindblindness, the difficulty with reciprocal social intereactions...would be truely evident until a child is a bit older. 

(((((HUGS))))) I'm so sorry. You must be so worried. I don't think an eval will hurt!

Evie, it sounds like you took the conversation in EXACTLY the right direction.  I think he will start getting it (whether he was quick to admit it, or not).

Thanks for your sympathy for my kitty -- he had a full life and was spoiled rotten for 15 years.  I miss him, deeply feel the loss (I am a sort of "extreme" cat person), but to me it is sadder to see the strays in my neighborhood who have never known the kind fo affection that he did ...

I hope things get better in your house -- for you, for Bran, for Max ... all of you!  Keep us posted on Bran's progress with Max (I am sure it will be there!).

I think a lot of NT kids are not quite on it for empathy by seven, either. 

I lost my 15 year old cat a week and a half ago (yes on the 4th) and since we have a remaining (and SOCIABLE!) 13 year old cat who is home alone, we are trying to figure out what sort of pet to get HIM.  I am VERY hesistant to get a kitten as I am concerned that the kids are too young to realize how vulnerable a kitten is.  Most pet counselors say the youngest should be 6 or 7.  So ... this is something we've been discussing and thinking about recently.

The thing is, adults are so protective of a tiny kitty or puppy, and at the same time they are so playful, I think it is the perfect situation for a child to become VERY jealous of the animal, and subsequently do something harmful.  Of course, this is tough on the child, too, as they mature and feel guilt and realize they harmed a little creature.

Could Bran be jealous of your protective and cautionary remarks about Max?  I bet if you explore Bran's feelings, you might find out that is what's going on ...

 

foxl39277.6700115741Note that... actually... understanding someone is hurt but not caring is not at all typical of autistic people.  They've done studies, and if we lack any kind of empathy, it is not that one. 

The problem is that professionals redefined empathy to mean "the ability to tell what non-autistic people are feeling like" basically.  That is totally different from knowing and not caring.

Of course, it is possible for an autistic person to understand someone is hurt and not care.  But that is an autistic person with additional problems going on.

It is really really really unfortunate that professionals used the term "empathy" to describe our ability to read non-autistic social cues and understand what other people are feeling and so forth.  Because it means that autism has been confused with sociopathy, where a person lacks a totally different kind of empathy.  Autistic people (unless we also have other problems) care just as much as anyone else once we figure out there's a problem.  Sociopaths (the ones who are not additionally autistic anyway, I assume the two can go together sometimes) know there's a problem but don't care.  I'm not saying the only reason a person wouldn't care is sociopathy, but PLEASE don't mix up the two kinds of empathy when referring to autistic people.  We've been shown over and over not to lack the kind that happens once we figure out what's going on. Very clearly stated post, Amanda.  Having just read all the "Theory of Mind" stuff, I agree completely.   Sociopathy must be clearly distinguished from autism, to the public -- particularly with the recent surge in diagnoses. I used to know a woman who was looking for an Asperger's diagnosis, but when she talked about the sorts of things she did... she talked gleefully about doing horrible things to animals as a kid (I've blocked out the memory of even her descriptions of them), still had no remorse over this, enjoyed being nasty to people and watching them react, etc.  And knowing people like her is why I want to make the line so clear sometimes.  I don't know whether she was autistic or not but the things she was describing were more than just autism and were pretty scary.  I have a non-autistic relative (from a side of the family without any autistic people on it, as far as I know, actually) who has tortured animals and loves to brag about that and other scary things, and thinks it's funny when other people are disgusted, he also molested me as a kid and has done the same to many other female relatives.  I have many autistic relatives but none of them -- even the ones who've done things very wrong -- lack a conscience like that, lack caring.  None of them would laugh about torturing animals (and I'm talking, here, about people who know the animals are in pain, I'm not talking about young children or older children with delays in figuring out what animals are or that they can be hurt -- I can remember stepping on snails until someone said something about it in a voice that conveyed I was hurting something living... and I never have again).  When I know that a cat in particular is hurt I go ballistic, that's how viscerally it affects me.  I care too deeply, sometimes. 

And I've already been discriminated against by people who thought that I would be dangerous to their children because I am autistic, and things like that.  I know autistic people who are in jobs where they work with children, and some of them had trouble in their jobs once people found out they were autistic, because they'd heard in the newspaper or on the radio or on TV that autistic people had a cruel streak or didn't care about people or something.  We have the same range of the caring kind of empathy as everyone else does, we just don't always figure out that someone is hurt or what to do about it.
gtto39277.710474537I often don't realise when a person is upset (unless they're really upset, shouting and crying for example, in which case I burst into tears even if it has nowt to do with me) so in that respect I can be said to lack empathy. But that's really more (in my own experience) because I am thinking of something else and simply don't notice. However, once it's pointed out, or I cotton on, to the person being upset then I do feel sympathy for them. I rarely claim empathy unless it's closely related to my own experiences, but I do care.

Well, I suppose that is something I ought to consider.  However, it's not simply his lack of empathy that is raising concerns with me, because frankly, this is the first time I've ever seen him be so flat out about it. 

However, (and please, understand I'm not meaning to offend anyone here) the idea that my seven year old son is a borderline sociopath is a lot harder to swallow than the idea that he's just not "getting" this empathy thing very well.  It takes him a long time to put himself in someone else's shoes, so to speak.  I mean, if you ask him, he can tell you what empathy means, he just seems to have real trouble accomplishing it.  It's not an instinctive thing for him at all.  Last night, after talking with him some more, and comparing his fear of heights to the fear Max must have felt up there so high, and unable to get down or away, I think he finally understood.

I'm sorry about your loss, foxl.  That's a really tough thing to go through, I know.  I don't think Bran is jealous of Max, I think he's having trouble understanding that Max is NOT a toy, and that yes, it does hurt him to be handled roughly.  We asked him if he would have treated a human baby, for example, his younger brothers, that way, and he said, no way!  I told him that he should view Max the same way...as a member of our family, someone that is to be protected and respected the same way his baby brothers are.  If you wouldn't be mean to people, than you shouldn't be mean to animals, either, period.  He spent a good amount of time thinking about it today, I could tell.  And he obeyed the new rule about staying away from Max until further notice.  I guess our lecture got through somehow, thankfully.

*sigh*

I probably shouldn't have said anything about this, but I really didn't mean to offend anyone.  I was just really concerned about this new thing, in addition to the other things listed in the original post.  I am still new to all this, and learning about autism in all its forms.  I guess I was just being ignorant, but I didn't mean to offend you, gtto, or anyone else. 

ETA:  I'm sorry if I seem a little touchy today.  Jason had a pretty good tantrum today and slapped my face a couple of times before I could get him to stop.  Really hurt...he nailed me in the eye!  Not a good day all around, I guess. 

Evie39277.7584490741That's why I said that sociopathy isn't the only thing that can cause a person not to care, and mentioned the delayed development of totally realizing certain things and so forth, and young kids, etc.  I just get worried when the two kinds of empathy are casually stuck together. Gotcha.  I understand, now, and thank you for explaining.
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