Juvenile autism? | Autism PDD
I'm never sure which of my experiences and perceptions are typical of being on the spectrum or not, because I've never asked anybody. I know that others on the spectrum have greater perceptual differences than me.
Bumping for this thread... THANKS bullet !!!!!
It's SO, SO, SO WORTHWHILE when we get a glimpse into how an autistic thinks when he or she speaks...
Bullet -- Thanks for your input on the "this is what it likes to be autistic" online activity. I was kind of surprised to hear that the vision one seemed accurate to you. It really is a dramatically different way of seeing. The secret to the movement activity is going very slow, otherwise it's intensely frustrating which I think is their point. I thought the hearing one was very irritating, and I think it would help people have empathy about what it's like to have auditory processing problems. The thinking one could have been more effective if there had been an "obvious" expected (NT) answer while still having a logical alternative answer. I think my son doesn't always give the right answer because he doesn't know the implicit expectations in a question and focuses on different details. [QUOTE=moderngnome]Posts like these are why I find this board so fascinating! Holy cow! Your DH sounds almost exactly like my DH! Down to the job description, lol. He's working on an MBA, too! Only, he played by himself because his stepsiblings were all 10+ years older than him. And, uh, he's sort of lacking in the empathy department.
My son, however, is starting to stand out. People notice he's different, though he's young enough that people aren't sure if there is something "off", or if it's just him being him. I haven't had anyone be unkind about his public meltdowns...anyone I've come across has been quite nice, actually. We'll see how he does when preschool starts. "The thinking one could have been more effective if there had been an "obvious" expected (NT) answer while still having a logical alternative answer. I think my son doesn't always give the right answer because he doesn't know the implicit expectations in a question and focuses on different details." Aye, it seemed like there was no right answer in that one, so I've no idea if my choices were typical of being on the spectrum or not. VERY cool site! Will have to play with it later. I definitely have some APD issues. The cafeteria at my daughter's school sends me RIGHT OVER the edge! Tuhina, OTOH, is VERY hooked on ORANGE. We had to buy her boys' hunting (style) safety-orange clothes, at one point when she was about 3 ... and we never had a CLUE that it meant anything! I was trying to explain to my husband the other day, what my being on the autistic spectrum means. It's not just about how I interact with others, or how co-ordinated I am, or how I react to external stimuli, it's how I think and learn and, basically, why I might look at things or think about things a different way. For example, this is a conversation we were having about imagination and stories. Husband: "So, when you're reading a book, do you pick one of the characters and pretend you're them? You know, you'd imagine yourself to be Poirot or Hastings?" Me: "No, never. When I read the book I see the scenes and the characters being played out like a film, but I just observe it. Of course, when I'm not reading I imagine that I have gone to the scene in the book and I'm talking and interacting with the characters, but it's always fully me there." H: "You never pretend to be anyone else?" Me: "I never have, I just can't comprehend it. Now, any situation, any time or place and I can easily imagine myself in it." It's that sort of little thing that means that no matter how I cope or don't cope with a situation, how I appear on the outside, I'll always think differently from many others. I know my imagination seems to work differently and also how I view things. This is a conversation I was having with my husband the other day: " So what've I missed then?" I think that if you are born "on the spectrum" you will always be "on the spectrum". Your brain will always work differently than the general population. I think that you can learn skills, either through therapy or life experience that can help you appear more NT, and you can learn what works to help with the sensory issues and funnel them into less obvious stims, but it is just who you are. My dh, after learning more about autism, realized that he was firmly on the spectrum too, as is almost all of the people on the Computer Science floor at the college were he teaches. When he takes ds to therapy, he can quickly recognize ds' thought process, although it confuses everybody else at times. The clinical educator really loves him because he can put to words exactly how ds is thinking because he recognizes that he used to be that way. Dh certainly didn't have as strong of issues as ds, but he did have a speech delay and has always used language a bit differently than most people. He just appears "quirky" to people who don't know what to look for in an autistic spectrum. I really do hope these young children have a much easier time then my son is having...Because the frustration he has..you also have until your heart breaks from the pure weight of it.
This made me very sad - God bless you - and all of us here with our children in the spectrum - especially those of us with severe issues - may God help us! I think that when someone has Autism they have it for life. That has been one of the hardest things for me to accept, and I still am only now coming to crips with this. My son is 19, I would have loved for things to become more "managable" as he got older...but they did not. He got bigger, and puberty hit. I pray that all the parents who have young children on the spectrum have an "easy" time as their chilldren get older. But I know what puberty can do to a "normal" child, think about someone on the spectrum, or just has plain autism....and you can't explain to them why they are feeling as they do, frustration sits there and grows bigger until there is an explosion in the form of a meltdown. I don't know, call me cynical or a realist..just be ready. I really do hope these young children have a much easier time then my son is having...Because the frustration he has..you also have until your heart breaks from the pure weight of it.
I also think some kids with other problems like LD's dx'd young can look like mild autism. And, some kids who are dx'd are very very mild and get dx'd "just in case". I think some kids will fall into other dx's when they're older or it's possible that they had a delay and not a disorder. My youngest ds is dx'd with "provisional autism" but it is likely NVLD and will not typically dx'd until grade 3. I know of some kids who have ASD dx's and childbrain scores in the 30's where mild PDD starts at >50, mod. >100, severe >150. What worries me, as the mother of also a more severe autistic dd, that it will become expected that most ASD children are recovered because of this. My dd will be ASD no matter how many interventions we do. Husband: "So, when you're reading a book, do you pick one of the characters and pretend you're them? You know, you'd imagine yourself to be Poirot or Hastings?" Me: "No, never. When I read the book I see the scenes and the characters being played out like a film, but I just observe it. Of course, when I'm not reading I imagine that I have gone to the scene in the book and I'm talking and interacting with the characters, but it's always fully me there." When I read a book I see the scenes the same way. I am not autistic. Is that something that is common with autism. I assumed when everyone reads a book that it plays out like a movie in their heads. "Wait wait... NT people are supposed to be able to put themselves as a character in a book?" I think what my husband meant was could I imagine myself as somebody else? Eg could I imagine what it would be like to be Ozzy Osbourne, or Al Capone? And the answer is, no, I couldn't. I think it's split pretty much evenly overall the population (NT and autism spectrum) regarding whether somebody is a visual or an auditory thinker, so that probably wasn't the best example to think. And my husband did admit that he realised I had a point in asking the names of the characters, he was just using it as a jumpboard to explain how I focus on what others see as irrelevant details. Of course, I don't see them as irrelevant. Perhaps more in line with what I was trying to explain is that I will focus on details that are relevant to me, that help me make sense of the story but which most NTs would not see as being conducive to telling the story. So, for example, in FireFly, whilst this conversation that helped to set the scene was talking place I was focusing on a metal grid. Trying to think of another example. Ok, I'm looking at Tom's chair in front of me. I don't see a chair, not to start with at least, I see first of all line, line, line, line, red, silver, one leg. Repeat x three. Then line line line line red. That's the seat. Then line, line line, line, red, mark, silver. That's one post on the back. Repeat times three. It can take me ages to see a chair in its entirety because I can't just take it in at a glance, I have to build it up and once that's done then I see the whole chair. But if you imagine why I will then look at the table using the same pattern, then a tiny section of the carpet, then other things around me you'll understand why I miss so many conversations and people passing and other items in the room. I know that the way I concentrate on looking at things is just one aspect but it's so hard to explain the rest of it. I know that it's not just personality differences, because they relate to how I see and hear, how I think, how I learn. I can read a page in a few seconds but can't follow a multiple verbal instruction. I canconcentrate very easily on a leg of a chair, but (as you saw from my conversation example) I often can't stay on task when talking or place things in context. Ok, I'm trying to think of another example. I've been told I can be tactless when disagreeing about something, but it's more to do with the fact that I believe there are some fundamental human rights that should be unbreakable and that when these are broken that is unacceptable. And it doesn't matter what the motivations are for breaking them, or even if, say, a political party that's breaking them would be able to offer me all sorts of good things personally if I voted for them, I would oppose that party and the breaking of the human rights. It's not that I see things in black and white all the time, but rather that I will not compromise my views on rights and justice even if it would benefit me to do so. I did think that was a view that most would take (and I'm sure there are NTs who do have my viewpoint), but when I speak to others about it I am told I labour the point too much, that it's not relevant, that I should just learn to get on with others and not argue. Furthermore, most people come out with the line of "thinking about yourself" and can't understand why I don't hold to that view. It is difficult for me seeing things from another person's viewpoint, not because I don't agree that person has the right to that viewpoint, it's just hard for me to put myself through their perspective, unless that perspective appears to match my own. For those of you who have seen the Autism SPeaks video "Autism Every Day" there's a scene in it in which a mother is upset that her child has never said she loved her, even whilst the child is hugging her mum and asking why she's crying. Now, I watched that film looking at the little girl, admittedly to see how she compared next to Tom, but I focused on her and not the talking woman. I could hear the talking woman, I didn't need to see her, but I did need to watch the little girl and because of that I picked up straight away that the little girl did love her mum. So I couldn't understand it when many people failed to notice that. Well, obviously I can only speak for myself, but: The sight one seemed spot on in the sense that I do focus on a small aspect of what's around me, eg when I'm out walking I'll be looking at the white lines on the road, or the numbers on a bin, or a number plate, which is probably why I often miss people saying "hello" to me. Everything is blurry as well, but to be honest I put that down to my short sightedness. The hearing one is a bit more complicated. I don't get all the alarms and bells coming at me, but if I'm in a place where there's lots of noise I hear it all on one level. If I'm listening to someone speak and my understanding goes I hear the words perfectly clearly, but it's as though I'm listening to a foreign language. So I hear, but don't "hear", if that makes sense. If I have to make eye contact when someone's talking then I find it very difficult even to keep track that they're talking. Also, when that woman was giving all those instructions at the breakfast scene I lost her after the first couple and if I'd have been listening to her from upstairs it would have been really difficult to understand her. I'd have heard her talking, but not been able to make sense of many of the words. The thinking one I couldn't work out what I was supposed to do. I looked at all the options and it was nigh on impossible to decide what should be the odd one out. Anyone one of them could have done. I kept choosing at random for the most part, though sometimes if I really thought about it I could say "well, that has curves" or "that isn't symmetrical, but I still wasn't happy completely with my choices. The proprioceptor one I couldn't control the mouse on either one so got a bit annoyed at that, to be honest
Bullet, you talked about how you perceive visual details. I was curious what you and Woodsman thought of this online activity (link below) which is supposed to illustrate how a person with autism sees, hears, thinks and moves. Does it seem authentic? http://www.jambav.com/jambav/flashy/jmx/index.php?source=rig htnav However, I personally believe that if the diagnosis is correct, it will be a lifelong disability, although in some cases it will be manageable to the point where it's "in remission." If it is not managed, and accommodations and supports are dropped or not carried over to new life situations, stress will increase, and the disability will again become more visible. Just my two cents... I think it is my secret desire that my child can just "grow out of it". I believe the parents who say that they feel their child has improved so much that they are "recovered" and are no longer on the spectrum. I guess in my mind, I use the lack of definitives surrounding this disorder to my hope's advantage. Experts don't know what causes it, they aren't sure how to treat it consistently, so the possibilities are open, including the possibility that someone's child is misdiagnosed or that children can mature and "grow out of it" or at least appear to have grown out of it. I take to heart all of the parent experiences I hear where the parents were told this or that regarding severity and poor prognosis and over time it has not unfolded in the worst case as predicted.
Honestly - I see where Bug gets traits from both my DH and I. I think there is an ASD streak in DH's family - both he and his Brother had language delays as children. When DH and I first got together - I noticed that he took a while to respond in conversation. He had to formulate his thoughts in his mind before he could speak them (so opposite of me - I'm such a motor mouth
"The three hard cases of the crew have ..."
"Which three?"
"Ummm, the blonde bloke and, look, this isn't relevant, I'm trying to get to the point of the story here ..."
"I need to know who you're talking about ..."
"Just three members of the crew, the blonde bloke, that Jane and, anyway, they ..."
"The blonde bloke and Jane. So who was the third?"
"The captain."
"OK, so why not just say?"
"Because you don't need to know."
"Yes, I do."
"No, you don't. Just know there's three members of the crew who ..."
"I need to know because I see things in my head, I see thoughts as though it's a film I'm watching and if I can't visualise it I can't make sense of it."
"Not everything."
"Yes, everything. Come on, you must see pictures in your head. What about if I asked you to think of a ball, what would you see?"
"I'd get this vague image or impression of a ball."
"Well, I get full scale moving images of lots of balls, sometimes on large ball, sometimes lots of little balls and they're all moving about the place."
"But you can listen to a story without knowing what people look like."
"If it relates to people I've not seen before I can create an image, a film in my head about them. That's fair enough. But when you're talking about character's established on film or in real life, then I need to know who is who. Otherwise I can't understand the story."
"Well, you focus too much on irrelevant details."
"That is NOT an irrelevant detail, it's an important plot device."
"Well, maybe not that. Although I still say it's not relevant and now we've wasted ages arguing and I've forgotten the story. But you focus on tiny, unimportant details."
"They're important to me!"
"They're not important to anyone else. You just don't seem to get the focus of a conversation. If you were told Darth Vader was your father you'd be asking what that mark on his shirt was, or why there weren't safety railings."
"Well it makes no sense that part about Luke. I mean, why place the baby in a place where Darth Vader has been before and with relatives? Surely that's the first place he'd go looking? And surely Luke would bleed to death with a cut like that."
"A cut like what?"
"When his hand is, ummm, is, what's the word? Squaddled."
"There's no such word."
"I know what I mean."
"Well, I don't. What are you talking about?"
"When his hand is caught, with the sword."
"When it's cut off with the light sabre."
"Yes."
"Well, say so then."
"I did!"
"So what happened with FireFly then?"
"Just watch it. I'll rewind."
Moments later.
"Ok, so what's happened there?"
"You've just seen it."
"Well, I was looking at the grid on the floor."
"So you've missed part of the story line because you were looking at the metal grid?"
"It called to me. Tell me what happened please."
"Ok, three members of the crew."
"WHICH three members?"
"I've already told you which three. You've just been watching it."
"I was focused on other stuff and I've forgotten whqt you were talking about earlier. Do you mean the blonde bloke, Jane and the Captain."
"YES!"
"Right, ok then. Do you think the blue gloves look like they work in a food factory?"
"Eh?"
"THe blokes. You know, the men in black type efforts."
"They're not part of this scene."
"I know, I was just wondering. How come things don't fall down that grill?"
I won't say I watch for other things other than the plot while I'm watching a show, but I don't think those things you described were about being ASD o NT.. I think they're personality differences.
I was actually having a similar conversation with an online friend last night. He was discussing how "normal" people see words spelled out in their heads and that's why they can spell better than he does. That he had had a long conversation about it with his brother. I don't think it's normal at all to see words spelled out in your head before you write/type them. As I hear the word in my head, I type it. That's not to say it's abnormal either.
But now I've gotten off topic, slightly.. As for Juvenile autism, I agree with those who said, if you're truly ASD, then you will always be ASD (given there's no miracle cure that changes all your interworkings into a NT mind).
[QUOTE=bullet]
zayzer: I can say whenever i read a book it playes out like a movie just like u, where ill observe the action and never take part in it, i assumed others (NT or AS or ??) would do the same, tho it was probably rair amoungst the normal population. I have a hard time beleiving that bullet, or me and others with HFA or AS dont mostly think this way eather tho, but it can be a way of thinking for 'normal' people as well.
Honestly - I see where Bug gets traits from both my DH and I. I think there is an ASD streak in DH's family - both he and his Brother had language delays as children. When DH and I first got together - I noticed that he took a while to respond in conversation. He had to formulate his thoughts in his mind before he could speak them (so opposite of me - I'm such a motor mouth 
). Now, I don't know if DH has improved - but I don't notice the pauses at all anymore.
That said, my DH doesn't have any other characteristics - he did play alone a lot as a child (per MIL). Building Lego for hours in his room... 
BUT - If it is ASD - it is very mild - no stimming, wonderful empathy, no other signs that I'm aware of. DH is a manager - loves people - and is working on getting his MBA.
I think it is possible that Bug is close enough to typical that he will pass for NT. He is doing it now - but I can see the stress and strain it causes him.
For example - he goes to school (special ed. preschool - IEP) and his teacher says he is absolutely delightful. I'm not aware that he has ever had a meltdown there. He participates in circle time, plays with all the children (I asked specifically about this), he has snack, plays on the playground, and can even tell me bits and pieces (not a lot - but I get bits ;)). BUT... When he gets home - he melts down practically immediately! Like he has spent the whole morning acting or pretending to be NT - and he is exhausted!
It is the same (recently) when we do things like go to the zoo or arboretum as a family. His meltdowns (in public) have dramatically reduced. His language and interaction with people has greatly improved... Bug is only 4.5 - so I have high hopes that as he matures - his coping skills (NT acting? ;)) will improve with age - and that he will lead a fully functional life.
I do think he is on the spectrum - he qualified for the Autism Education label AND a private Developmental Ped put him mild on the spectrum. I don't think he will lose the label - but in our case - I think he is high functioning enough and intelligent enough to "act" his way through.
I do think the interventions he has had have made a difference! No question. He was floundering in an NT preschool last year. For three months he screamed every day when I went to pick him up. The environment (and clueless teachers) did not work for him. As soon as he started in the Special Ed preschool - with teachers that understood him - he has thrived. I'm sure "ignoring" it would not have helped Bug at all.
Does anybody really beleive one can sometimes snap out of it, if it was mild enough? I know i got much better with age, much like the other kids talked about on here, but to this day, im 25 years old and still have problems such as having a hard time talking to women for dates, trouble responding quickly when communicating, messing up stuff i say sometimes, and to this day I still get overloaded easily when their is too much going on around me as well as ive been told i over react alot or react inappropriatly sometimes. I beleive ill never get 100% better, but also beleive when these kids get older, they will, at least many of them function independently, but with similar issues.
Im not compairing myself to anybody else, but i am wondering if people really beleive in Juvenile autism and that one can be cured pretty much completly like my parents beleive happened to me?
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