IEP, NOREP, Speech questionsHi, I am new to the board and hope someone can help me! My son Christopher will be 6 in a few weeks, he was born with Down Syndrome and diagnosed with Autistic Spectrum disorder last July. We held him back in pre-school this year hoping he would make more advancements, so he will be entering public school in September this year. We live in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Christopher is mostly non-verbal, he babbles all the time but says few words and most he does not say consistantly. His form of communication is taking your hand to show you what he wants or just throwing a tantrum until you figure out what he wants. He is very uncooperative and not really interested in "learning" anything at home. He also is a like a different child in school than a home(more willing and cooperative at school) He is also receiving behavioural therapy at home. I went through the IEP process for him this week, I have not signed the Notice of Rcommended Educational Placement yet because I have a few questions I need answers to first. I have a call into the Education Law Library but have not received a call back yet. My questions are: Can a child rceive one-on-one speech therapy in an autistic classroom? I was told that my son could not receive this and that he will be given a total communication program, group setting, 1x per week. My son has been receiving speech therapy since infancy. His doctors said he needs one-on-one attention in this area at least 2x per week. I was also told by the school district that speech therapy was not for him because he doesn't speak, that it was for those who can speak but have trouble with articulation, etc. Christophers placement will be in an Autistic Support Classroom full time, which I agreed with but the school was not selected because the person who does this was not at the IEP meeting. I do not want to sign the NOREP until I know what school they selected. Am I supposed to be involved in selecting the school for him? Was the person who makes this decision supposed to be at the IEP meeting? The IEP meeting was on Thursday, I took the paperwork home without signing it and they want it back on Monday. Should I just return it saying I don't agree with it until I find out the answers to my questions? I want to make sure that what I am asking for, my son is entitled to under the law before I go through due process. I am sorry this is so long, I just wanted to give a little background info. with my questions. I will appreciate any advice given. Thanks Karen
ae a but they, lodis 6 Hi Karen. WELCOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! May I suggest you check the website....wrightslaw.com............ I think (if I remeber correctly) that your son is entitled to individual speech therapy.......if that is in his best interest............ This piece of information I know for a fact................You and the IEP Team together are suppose to choose your son's placement........... Check it out on wrightslaw.com......... Good luck and welcome again.........Terri Depends on the district. Some just don't over individualized speech therapy and some do. But if the child had a one to one aid it seems like to me the aid could work with him on that. Also in some cases the IEP team does chose the placement with no input form the parent. Tammy It is funny you should address this..my dd had an IEP 2 weeks ago and I never signed anything, nor did they request my signature for anything. I have always signed her IEPS in the past, but they didn't seem that concerned this time. I don't agree with everything either and I am just hanging on to it. I thought it might be something new with IDEA. I did get a certain portion of her speech in one one one (two 20 minute sessions one on one and 1 group) it can probably be changed now that she is starting to converse (a little). She never talked in group speech. I think one on one speech should be mandatory for autistic kids. Your son may not have articulation problems (yet) but he definitely needs communication skills and language development. Speech is suppose to address these issues too! It sounds like you have good reason to be concerned! Good luck, Renee My only advice regarding speech therapy is to make sure you have a therapist who is experienced in working with autistic children. Some that are not experienced do not understand the difficulty our children have in retreiving information. My therapist had us use a simple card system with a picture of something my son wanted a lot (like Juice, Chips, Pool,etc) and when he would take my hand and point to one of these things I would hold up the picture with the word printed underneath and repeat the name. It took many, many times however it did work and we were able to expand the cards to many more things. Start small, maybe 1 or 2 cards. It really worked and now my son is able to communicate most all of his needs. This ability to communicate certainly helped my son's frustration level. Good Luck! Luanne True that the IEP team does choose placement regardless of input, but only if the parents allow that to happen. Law states that the parents ARE part of the IEP team. If you don't agree, off to due process you should go. Also, if you have a request from your pediatrician that he needs 1:1 speech, they have to consider that. You can add anything you want to the IEP...even if they don't agree...then it will be on record that you disagree, or are requesting other placement options. They cannot stop services altogether, just write in the margins what you do agree to and what you don't...write letters to your SpEd Admin asking for their denial and reasons in writing. It'll help you down the road. Hi Karen Welcome to the board! I hope it can be of support to you and you find as many friends here to share with as we have. Don't worry about the length of a post either! Sometimes it is necessary to get important info out and sometimes its necessary to vent! LOL Seems alot of our kids do better at school than at home.... I think it has alot to do with the fact that school is more structured than home and there is consistency in routine. Our kids also feel safer at home to let things out so at school they hold things together more. Rather frustrating if oyu ask me when you try to explain something and no one understands it because they never see it! Notice of Parents' Rights http://www.pde.state.pa.us/special_edu/cwp/view.asp?a=177&am p;Q=48807
As far as Speech Therapy,........... I dont see why he couldnt or shouldnt have one on one therapy. My son reeives both (or is supposed to anyway - thats a different story) You said " I was also told by the school district that speech therapy was not for him because he doesn't speak, that it was for those who can speak but have trouble with articulation, etc." THAT IS INSANE!!! Speech Therapy is also teaching them sign language, PECS, Electronic Spelling boards, and Electronic communicators and so on! LUANNE Mentioned ...... "My only advice regarding speech therapy is to make sure you have a therapist who is experienced in working with autistic children. Some that are not experienced do not understand the difficulty our children have in retreiving information" Luanne - I think it would be great too if the speech therapist was trained in autism as well but unfortunately it doesnt happen that way in the school system. Its impossible to train 1 ST in every disability. I agree many ST's dont understand the difficulty our kids have but thats another thread. If you want a specialist in autism and arent at an autism specific school you will have to seek private ST. Man - I just can't believe how hard they make for some of these kids...it's criminal really. It took one phone call to our DOE and a quick conversation before she offered to attend our IEP with us....so I haven't even gone through due process yet. The other thing I did was to send a letter after our IEP stating all my disagreements...by law it became part of his file, and there's no way they can say it was never discussed. All they wrote our our IEP under "Parent comments/concerns" was "both parent were in attendance" Ugh! It was a 3 1/2 hour meeting!!! I didn't want to get into it the way we did with the school, I really appreciate all the services they offered, and love all his teachers, but he needed more and I had to make sure I was heard. We're not done yet either, they're assessing still over the summer, and we have another IEP in August before school starts. It's good to know though Tammy ~ that not everywhere operates the same way...it's a darn shame for our kids though! ~Lesley I want to thank everyone for your input, I appreciate it. I hope tomorrow I will get a call back from the Education Law Library, They have been very helpful in the past. Tomorrow night I am meeting with a lawyer who is a friend of my husbands and he is going to have his partner there, they do not specialize in special ed., but they will find out answers for me and they said they can get him into whatever school I want him in(political connections!) . I hope so, I do not trust the school district at all! I already know what school I want him in and it is the same one that will offer the extended school year (not all public schools offer that in Phila.). Michelle, you are so right regarding trying to explain how my son acts at home to people. They think I am crazy! I have been told so many times, in so many words, that it is my fault, I'm not hard on him, let him cry and tantrum! I do let him cry and tantrum, he can do this for a good hour or two and while doing this he hits himself in the face and head and bangs his head on the wall and floor. Am I suppose to let him hurt himself?!! I try to by harder on him, but I am a stay at home mom and I am the one with him all the time and sometimes I let him get away with things that I shouldn't but it's for my sanity!!! He does know that school is where he needs to do certain things and follow schedules, etc. At home he does not want to be bothered with therapists and has always put up a fight since he was an infant! His TSS comes home with him from school each day to work with him and every day it is a fight! Anyway, I am adding more goals to his IEP, asking for one-on-one speech therapy and telling them what school I want him to go to (reason being going to 2 different schools during the year WILL NOT WORK for him) I dread the change he faces comes September with going into a regular school. I am hoping he will suprise me and adapt quickly, which he does do at times. Luanne, I am going to ask for a speech therapist experienced in Autism, but in Philadelphia, you are lucky to get a speech therapist one-on-one at all. I have taken out the phone book and called for speech therapy for him and he is on a waiting list of at least 6 months just for an evaluation at Children's Hosp. Private therapists are available if you can afford them. The school district will not pay since they believe what they are offering is appropriate for him. That is what "A FREE APPROPRIATE PUBLIC EDUCATION" IS ALL ABOUT. tHE KEY WORD IS APPROPRIATE, which to me means the least they can get away with! Anyway, thanks again for listening and helping. I will update you guys on what is happening.
Karen schswill we go to my iep tomorrow and i am so worried that they are just going to list mason as speech/dev. delay. when i have the diag. of asd. should i put my foot down and demand they give him this title. i am asking for 1-on-1 speech and ot. as well. any advice. my school disct. said they dont see it in him but they are not doctors.Wow~that's terrible that you're limited on ST...here if they need it, they should get it, and if the school can't provide the time you need, they pay for outside svcs...which seems kind of ridiculous to me anyway since the school can bill Medicaid services. I just can't believe that they'll prevent kids from getting what they need for "free and approprate puclic education"...if it's prescribed/suggested, I was always told that they're entitled...the law is on their side. I understand that some parents also supplement, wihch is fine if you have insurance that'll cover it, but if it's needed to provide these kids an education, they're supposed to do it. Yes, they'll incorporate the IEP as is, which is good that there's no delay, but there is nothing to stop due process and/or mediation if you've requested it. And writing on the IEP is good, because it needs to go on record that you do/don't agree with services....you still should write letters, to SpEd Admin, District and Regional Superintendents and the Dept. of Education...trust me - they'll listen then. The DOE even sent a rep to our IEP meeting AND hooked us up with an Advocate. Schools will fight so they don't have to spend the money, but your children are entitled...don't always believe what they say. Good luck Karen! Actually the Department of Education will not get involved until you have done all of the other steps first. And here in Minnesota the attorney general's office won't get involved until you have been thru every step with the school district. Once again, everyone should check with their individual states to see what their law is. These states vary on the laws too much. Tammy That depends.. simply because he has a medical diganosis of autism does not mean that he will meet the criteria the state has set for being labeled Educationally autistic and the reverse is true, you can meet the criteria for educatinal autism without having a medical diagnosis of autism. The way the states determined and defined their labels controls, not the medical diagnosis. It also depends on the age of the child because many districts do not start adding specific labels on until between age 5-6 (prior to that they tend to more use the young child with a develeopmental delay/disability). The IEP is deisgned to meet the individual needs of the child. The label is only a way for the school district to say this child exhibits a certain type of behaviors that need to be addressed in the school setting. Simply because the school does not see the autistic behaviors can mean simply he isn't exhibiting them in the classroom and thus they aren't inhibiting his ability to learn or the ability of any of the children around him. IDEA is fairly loosely written to allow for the states to experiment and still work within their school budgets. We often forget that a free and appropriate education does not mean the best education available to our child or what each child needs to be the most successful (which it really should be but it isn't). States have enough problems trying to figure out what an appropriate education is for regular children that adding in special needs just makes things even worse. Another thing to look at is the due process procedure that you have to go through to fight the placement. Here, I know we have an appeals process through the school district and we can have no legal representation (at least at the hearing)until that appeals process is over (its technically forced mediation/arbitration). As for therapy, my son gets 1 on 1, small group and large group speech therapy. The therapists uses all three because he needs both individual work on somethings, but other parts he is further along and needs children to interact with at varying levels to meet his goals (part of it is communicative speech with peers) I am a speech pathologist in the public schools, and I just wanted to add some things. First off, I am so sorry you are going through all of this! It is awful that the school district felt that speech therapy is only for students who talk. I don't know who put that bug in the district's ear, but it is totally untrue. Secondly, you definitely need to advocate for your child. You know your child best. DO NOT sign the IEP unless you are totally comfortable with it.****I know someone posted that an unsigned IEP is the same as a signed IEP, and services can start up even if you haven't signed. That is completely untrue. If an IEP is rejected or not signed, services cannot begin. It would be illegal if they did. The only loophole is if the child is already receiving services from the school district and is already on an IEP. When that child's plan is up and a new one is drafted, then the parents look over the new IEP. If that new IEP isn't signed, then the TEAM works off the old IEP until a new one is put into place.**** You might want an outside evaluation (I am not sure, but I think outside evals are paid for by the family rather than the school district, but you might want to double check), just to get another opinion regarding your child's speech and language, especially if you disagree with the therapy the district is proposing. I wish you all the best! -Amy thanks for all the great input- new iep went well-did not label him as asd but we got everything we wanted for this new shcool year. Glad to hear it! [QUOTE=ames]You might want an outside evaluation (I am not sure, but I think outside evals are paid for by the family rather than the school district, but you might want to double check), just to get another opinion regarding your child's speech and language, especially if you disagree with the therapy the district is proposing. [/QUOTE] http://wrightslaw.com/info/test.iee.mayerson.htm How Can We Get an Independent Evaluation by an When the school evaluated my child, the evaluator overlooked or minimized several areas and did not make specific recommendations about services. We requested an independent evaluation. The school said we have to use an evaluator from their "approved list." Is this true? How independent is an evaluator who has been 'approved' by the school? No, but you don't want to start WWW III over this issue. You want to get a comprehensive evaluation of your child by an evaluator of your choice. In How to Compromise with Your School District Without Compromising Your Child, parent attorney Gary Mayerson (who represented the family in Zachary Deal v. Hamilton County TN and other cases) describes a strategy that parents can use to get an independent evaluation by an evaluator of their choice. Mr. Mayerson suggests that parents write a letter to the school that says: Dear _____: I / we are not satisfied with the [recent - add date] evaluation performed by the In light of this, we are requesting that the district agree to pay for an independent evaluation of our [son/daughter] by [name of provider] who is a private [child psychologist / speech language pathologist / neuropsychologist / other ] located at [address] The anticipated cost of this evaluation is $____. Please advise if the district will pay for this independent evaluation which we consider to be essential. If the district refuses to pay or fails to advise of approval within 30 days, we reserve the right to secure and pay for the requested independent evaluation. If we have to go that route, we will have no choice but to request that the district reimburse us. Please advise. Mr. Mayerson suggests another strategy for parents to use when the school says they must select an evaluator from the school's "approved list". In How to Compromise with Your School District Without Compromising Your Child, Mr. Mayerson provides many useful strategies that parents can use to get services. Mr. Mayerson's book is available from Wrightslaw.com, Amazon.com and other online bookstores Independent Education Evaluations: What? How? Why? Who Pays? - Parents and school personnel are often confused about what constitutes an independent educational evaluation (IEE) and how the evaluation is to be used. In this article, parent attorney Wayne Steedman describes independent educational evaluations and their value, what the law requires of school districts, and who is financially responsible. I am new too... to this board.. but live in pennsylvania..
here is a great website if you dont have it already... http://www.usacad.org/speech02.htm http://www.usacad.org/speech.htm my son is older.. and we have done the due process thing 2 times and on our way again.. this summer.. now he is involved in the juvenile justice system .. i believe as a way for the school to get rid of him he just turned 17 and law in pa says at 17 the child has to want an education... and he does... but needs more assistance than they are willing to give..
Hi everyone: I just wanted to put my thoughts re: some of the issues regarding doctor's prescriptions for services to be rendered in the school system. As an OT working in the educational setting, doctors' prescriptions hold NO merit in the school system. This is under the California OT Guidelines, I am not sure how it is with speech. For OTs, school-based OT services are different from clinic/medical OT services therefore we do not pick up kids just because it was recommended by the doctor. What we look at in the educational setting is EDUCATION...what are the performance components that are hindering the child from achieving in his classroom setting? I know that many speech therapy are done in group settings...It might be effective cause it also works on socialization....OTs are also getting into group sessions under the collaborative model which is showing effectiveness. Group therapy is not all so bad when it is done appropriately ames wrote:
There is an article published that states the negative outcome of third party evalutions. Outside disciplines might be looking at a different aspect of the child rather the aspect that is effecting how he is functioning in the educational setting. I think that for home speech therapy---an outside evaluation could be appropriate however it might not be so much when it is in the school. OTs have really been against third party evaluations because they only focus on certain occupational performance components rather than the whole picture into why the child is not performing well in the school setting. Check with your state regulations and guidelines.[/QUOTE] I'd sure be interested in this article if you could find it. I know what we call them is "Independent Education Evaluations" if we disagree with the school evaluation, and those are the ones that are "supposedly" at public expense. And they are directed towards education, as a matter of fact, you have to use the evaluators which are named by the DOE. (so much for non-bias) Your previous post mentioned that you don't have to abide by Dr. dx/prescriptions, which I find kind of scary...they don't neccessarily write them for the fun of it, so I don't understand why having a child in the school system, and a doctor having input on what that child needs and it being denied, isn't maybe failing the child? Maybe I read it wrong, I don't know. It's obviously a little diff't here, as I have provided rx for my son to the school, and they have been taking into consideration. In fact, for the longest time, they wouldn't provide some things without letters from our doc. What I have read on the law, all outside evals. HAVE to be taken into consideration, or else you can end up in due process for denying their rights. Anyway...I'd be interested in reading that article if you can find it. Hi everyone: I just wanted to put my thoughts re: some of the issues regarding doctor's prescriptions for services to be rendered in the school system. As an OT working in the educational setting, doctors' prescriptions hold NO merit in the school system. This is under the California OT Guidelines, I am not sure how it is with speech. For OTs, school-based OT services are different from clinic/medical OT services therefore we do not pick up kids just because it was recommended by the doctor. What we look at in the educational setting is EDUCATION...what are the performance components that are hindering the child from achieving in his classroom setting? [/QUOTE] That might be the way it is in California but not in MInnesota. The schools bill medical assistance. To be able to do that the school needs a prescription or a reason from the doctor to be able to offer it so they can bill medical assistance. As far as what you look at in the educational setting is EDUCATION, therapies are not education specific. They also cross into socialization, safety issues, a million things. And how many minutes you get a week is determined by state law. And school bassed ot services here are approved by the doctor. Here is considered a medical aspect more than an educational aspect. Same as with meds, those have to be signed by a doctor. And who would know better what works for the kid than the kids doctor? Not the school, the doctor, in some cases, has a more complete picture than the school will ever have. Tammy Oh good point Tammy! I forgot, I also have to have a referral replaced every year from our doctor to the school in order to continue svcs. Forgot about that!In Massachusetts public schools, therapies have to be educationally relevant. For instance, if a child has a poor grasp, it may affect his writing skills, therefore affecting his classroom performance. If a child is dx'd with autism and cannot communicate, it is considered educationally relevant because he cannot access the general curriculum. If a child has sensory needs, chances are that he/she will have difficulty in the classroom due to attention, motivation, distractibility, behavior, etc...therefore it is educationally relevant. Doctor referrals are certainly valid, but they may not always be valid in the public schools, as they need to make the case for educational relevancy. Another example - a child is 8 and doesn't pronounce /r/ correctly, but it doesn't affect her academically or socially. Most likely, she would not qualify for services at school, even with a doctor's script. The script would cover outside therapy services, and possibly be covered by insurance.If the child is allergic to dairy or is on a no sugar diet then you have to have a script from the doctor or the school won't be able to follow it. It depends on the district you are in. Tammy Wow - it must definitely depend upon the district you are in. I have never heard of anything that strict before. At least in the schools I have worked in, all it took for a dietary change, notification, or update was for the family/guardian to fill out a case history form for the school nurse. I know in our district we are allowed to inform the teachers what foods are children should and shouldn't have during hte day 9for snacks that are brought in). The only thing we would need a doc's rx for would be to give actual medication to the child (and thats generally found on the bottle)Guidelines and regulations are dependent on the state and district you are in...I am just sharing the guidelines where I work as well as the code of ethics and professional guidelines of OTs as stated in the American Occupational Therapy Association. Also when I say educational needs of the child, I mean all aspects of how a child is functioning in the school, this includes socialization, attention, handwriting, fine motor, etc. Thanks! :) Then you should know that all those qualifications vary from state to state. Some states don't even recognize licenses from other states.Hi, I just joined today. I'm hoping to find reference/information for teaching swim lessons to autistic kids. I'm fairly new at teaching swim lessons and would really like to learn how to work my student. He's such a joy and I want to be able to help him the best way I can. His Mom liked how I worked with him the first session and requested I be his teacher again but I don't feel comfortable asking for help because she has never brought the subject of his autism up and I don't want her to feel offended or feel like I am treating him different in some way. Anybody than can help or knows of some books,etc. I would really appreciate it. Thanks, Donna [QUOTE=tabitha]That is not true. Some provisions in the IDEA are left up to the individual states. Also you can write on the IEP all you want but unless you object in writing that you don't agree with the iep, they will incorporate that iep in 10 days. A unsigned IEP is the same as signing it.[/QUOTE]This is also one of the state to state variations. Some states implement and IEP unless you object in writing. Some need signatures. CA allows the parents to do line item acceptances and rejections. [QUOTE=horanimals][QUOTE=ot4kids]
I'd sure be interested in this article if you could find it. I know what we call them is "Independent Education Evaluations" if we disagree with the school evaluation, and those are the ones that are "supposedly" at public expense. And they are directed towards education, as a matter of fact, you have to use the evaluators which are named by the DOE. (so much for non-bias) What I have read on the law, all outside evals. HAVE to be taken into consideration, or else you can end up in due process for denying their rights.[/QUOTE] First of all, if a parent disagrees with the school's evaluation, they have the right to request - and get at the school district's expense - an outside evaluation, usually called an IEE - Independent Educational Evaluation. And, although the school district may provide a list of who they would recommend (hence, bias), the parent does NOT have to follow the recommended list, although they more than likely will have to prove to the district that the evaluator they wish to use either meets or exceeds the credentialling criteria the district has imposed. And yes, outside evaluations have to be considered, but the definition of "considered" is open to interpretation. At the very least, it means the district personnel glanced at it, stated "we've seen it" and then they move forward with their own agenda. At best, they will incorporate whatever suggestions the outside evaluator makes. If a parent disagrees with the school evaluation, and states they want an IEE, the district has to either permit it, or explain IN WRITING why they are denying it. Make sure if they deny it, you get it writing why - that's one of the fundamental building blocks you will need if you wind up moving to mediation/due process. On another note - the OP who indicated that her district stated speech therapy was for articulation, not for non-verbal students - it's quite possible they are correct in that district. Several states divide therapy for speech/language into two separate classifications - "speech therapy" for articulation, malformations and motor movement of the mouth, etc. and "language therapy" for the actual learning process of becoming verbal. You may simply need to be using their terminology... Education on how to advocate for your child through Wrightslaw and also through whatever agency exists in your state to do so (IDEA mandates each state have one - the school district will know what yours is although they may not want to give that info up!) are the best tools you have for finding out exactly what does/does not work in your state. IDEA is federal - the state may choose to broaden what the IDEA requires, but they cannot make laws defining it any more narrowly. |
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We all need that from time to time too! 
I applaud you for not signing the NOREP! I wouldnt sign either until I knew exactly what was being planned... to me thats like someone asking you to sign a blank check! Way To GO! I do know you have the right to refuse to sign... Seems for them to ask you to sign and return within 2 or 3 business days it just unrealistic. I would NOT let them pressure you. If they absolutely insist I would sign that I didnt agree until more information is given. YES you are to be a part of his planning team including his school placement. And YES the person who makes the decisions about placement should have been there. I read once somewhere that if the people who makes the decisions are NOT present you can ask to postpone the meeting until they ARE present. Sorry I wouldnt trust them AT ALL on anything that isnt in CONCRETE Terms in writing! 
