Shoe is on the other foot.... | Autism PDD

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Another thing also is if that was done here the school would call child protection services.  And makes me wonder if they have type of behaviour plan in place.  I mean if they know this kid does this all the time, surely they have done a behaviour assessment plan.  I know it gets frustrating all the time.  Both of my kids have a behaviour plan in their IEP's.  Good Luck.

Tammy

Theda,

I know how you feel. The last thing I want is for my son to hurt others, especially other children. I recently removed him from school, because he hurt 2 other children, and it was just the last straw. There had been many things that were wrong with the class he was in, mainly his teacher was incompetent. And with only 2 weeks of school left I decided it wasn't worth the risk of sending him back. He will be going to a different school for summer services and next fall, and will have a different teacher.

Fortunately for me, the children my son was aggressive towards, were 2 other non-verbal children who also are aggressive at times, and their parents were more than understanding. His school situation was just so frustrating for him, they weren't using his picture symbols or picture schedule, and they were putting him in places where he didn't want to be for long periods of time. He simply told them to stop in the only way he knew how. Unfortunately it involved 2 other children. And even though I know his behavior was due to his poor school situation, he has never been aggressive towards other children before although he has been aggressive with adults, I decided to start him on Risperdal about a week ago.

To everyone else:

If the aggressive child is in a public school with an IEP, then it is the school's responsibility to develop a behavior plan to deal with the behavior. This is not to say that the parent's have no responsibilities, and if the behavior continues the aggressive child may need a change of placement. However, this should not occur unless the child has already been seen by a behavioral psychologist and a behavior plan put in place. It is the school's responsibility to do this.

http://www.cesa7.k12.wi.us/sped/Parents/plbd.htm

For many children with behavior problems, using the common strategy of consequences for misbehavior does not seem to work. Then, the IEP team can use a process called functional behavioral assessment (FBA) to try to understand the child's behavior. Districts either have someone who understands functional behavioral assessment or can locate someone to help them learn how to do it. Functional behavioral assessment is not hard to learn to do.

A functional behavioral assessment will try to look at each problem behavior to figure out when, where, and why it is occurring. The person or people doing the FBA will probably want to observe the child, interview parents and teachers, and investigate all the places and times when the child's behavior occurs.

When a district uses an FBA to take a closer look at the child's behavior, they will be trying to find an answer to the question, "What function does this behavior have for this child?"

Experts say there are only two answers to that question. All behaviors either:

A good FBA will look beyond what the behavior IS to what the behavior DOES for the child. A good FBA will:

A good FBA will lead to answers to two important questions:

  1. What will cause the behavior to happen?
  2. What will cause the behavior to NOT happen?

 

I know with Gabe, even tho he has the behaviour plan in place, you never know when or what will set him off.  It is like a light switch with him.  If you know him well you can notice a certain look in his eyes.  He might go off that morning, that afternoon, or wait until he is home from school and go off.  So his behaviour is still a work in progress.

Tammy

NP Hollie Glad some of this has helped Good Luck whatever you decide wow.
There is alot here in this thread that hits very close to home and invokes very strong feelings for me.

For us it is my son who is that aggressor and the most capable and likely to it in his group unfortunately. I am also just one such grandmotherly type with no background training other than the hands-on training I receive as we go (I am a volunteer aide at my son's class at his program), and I too have been guilty of (especially at first and prior to the Open House event which brought home in a stark way why) asking and wondering why we have to push them quite so hard and stay on their backs every minute, wanting to and having to resist the urge to let things slide, etc. I may *want* to spoil, but I don't. I understand very well why we just can't and I don't.

My son has been the one to do the pushing, hitting, hairpulling, pinching (one particular woman there gets the pinching, I think this is my son's way of trying to be playful show interest in her or that he likes her) and we (primarily my son's one to one) have to stay ontop of him constantly for this and I feel horrifically guilty and ashamed that its my son who's the culprit.

I really can't say much else at this time, nothing of any use or benefit, no helpful suggestions at this time regarding this and I'm sorry, I'll come back and add any should I come up with anyting that's not already been said that might be helpful. in leu of anythingn I can contribute right now, I just felt compelled to just speak up just to say this thread hits very close to home in so many ways and on several areas and levels.

Theda

Updated to add: Today has been our second part of the language/hearing pathology place and their evaluation of my son. This post isn't meant to be negative, just that I'm in that mindset overall where I'm having my own overwhelmed rather delayed response to everything, if you know what I mean.
Alot to take in today, and I just wanted to say "I see this, I can surely relate, but I'm not really able to respond right now" -- no worries, no upsets.
Stevie'sMom38498.7130439815Theda,
You have no need to feel embarrased or ashamed of Stevie's behaviour.
In fact, by this time I am surprised that you still do.
I hope that this is not the norm, and that you are just having a bad day.
Autism has many faces.
If you read my earlier response, I acknowledged from the onset, that the best mom in the world can't control these symptoms.
You didn't want your child to be autistic, and in the short time I am on this board, I recognize your caring and devotion to your son.
While social skills classes do help some kids, they don't help all.
So many of our kids, especially non-verbal are frustrated, and act out accordingly.
On the other hand my daughter and I felt guilty when we took our child out of a class with many kids who pinched pushed, hit and spit.
We are selfish when it comes to his treatment, and panicked when we saw him emulating these negatives.
You are doing everything that you can to give him the best possible life.
Be proud of yourself, and every little step Stevie makes.
We all need your strength, knowledge, experience, and compassion.
Bev





erly thank you very much for your words,
You are right. It was a poor choice of words on my part and not quite what I meant.
I don't mean that I am ashamed of my son and I should hope that isn't the impression I left. 
I worry about his endangering others and it hurts me that he hurts others.
I'm not sure I have the right words even still.
I doubt I will, certainly not tonight anyway I suspect.
I shouldn't have posted at all until I have found the words I wanted, which I still can't .
I'm just very out of sorts tonight and feeling a bit down about various things, and confused, out of sorts. 
I'm experiencing a sudden and extreme bout of second-guessing positively everything, questioning myself and quite feeling down if I may be so honest.
It will pass. This much I know.
I think if I am wise at all I'll just take a little quiet time, that would be best.

Thank you again for your words of understanding and encouragement.

With Love and Blessings,

Theda

Stevie'sMom38498.9071064815

joron went througha aggresive stage more than his usual anger etc and he started lashing out at school i instantly once i was told dealt with him as i wont let him think that its ok etc .

about 6 months after that my youngets started being hit and bit by a child in his class i then started complaining etc to the school and as it turned out so had a number of other parents . i was told that this child was adhd and the mother wont do anything about it as she feels that its ok as he cant help himself etc. i said that unless some thing was done i would personally be having words with the mother as that was a terrible excuse and that when my autistic son does some thing i am the first to want to know and do something about it etc. i think this made them think a little as the mother was called in and told that it had to stop etc and once he was being dealt with he stopped doing this and is know friends with my son.

but this was done with someone who knew what was going on with their child so its diff than ur circumstances etc. i hope u can work something out xx

Thanks everyone for all of the support! I had thought about trying to "break the ice" with this mom in sharing that Nate is on the spectrum as well, but I'm not sure if she'll be very receptive to all of that. I think my best recourse for both of our children is to provide the school with more info about autism (THANK YOU to everyone who provided links!), behaviors, and tx options. Right now he has a "one-on-one", but she's an older woman who is usually a substitute teacher in the class and I'm not sure if she has any specific training. They're all like a bunch of granma's wanting to spoil all of the children! I think they mean well, but they're definately doing the children a disservice. I don't think any of them have any specific training in this area, but I think they would like to help as much as they can.    

Also, Josh's teacher did tell me that she couldn't tell me the name of the child, but that Joshua, of course, would and they haven't actually told me about his autism directly however after putting all of the conversations together and mentioning clinics, doctors, psychs, SLTs, etc. that Nate is affiliated with and the behaviors I've witnessesed, I mentioned it and they assured me that I was right. It's very obvious and I picked up on it right away. I was happy to know because I felt like they would be more open to Nate's issues the older he gets.

Thank you all for the reassurance! It's hard to put yourself in the other parent's shoes and I didn't know if I was just being biased or if I should be!   
Thank you again for all of the links and I'll keep you posted!

~Holliei do not think you should get involved. it is the schools problem. they need ot document it and something needs to be done to stop that childs behavior. they need a policy in standing. same thing happened to my son. always getting scratched by another kid. parents worse than child. i kept insisting it be written up. parents never cut kids nails when he scratched it would really cut into skin. finally school made mom come to school and cut kids nails in front of teacher and when he had hurt enough children told parents child would be asked to  leave school unless they formed some sort of plan to stop his aggression. has to be written up so school has something solid to look at. feel badly for child seems like he needs some limits put on him and mom not there to help.I think that we are forgetting that whether the mother is in denial or not, super mom or not, many kids with autism manifest this type of behaviour.
It is just another symptom for many of our kids.
The best loving mother, has no real control over these behaviours.
It is not similar to typical kids.
You need to make the decision as to what is best for your child.
My grandson started pre-K this past year in a class of various functioning kids.
Many of these kids spit, hit, bit, etc.
My grandson, luckily is a very gentle child, who had never shown this type of behavioural problems, possibly because he is verbal, and can articulate his needs.
It was a tough and slightly guilt ridden decision, but we pulled him out of the class.
He began to emulate some of these behaviours, as our kids are also great Imitators.
So you need to do what is best for your child.
Be selfish, for him, if not for yourself.
You are his advocate
Wishing you the best.
Bev

This is a very touchy situation in my eyes.  The daycare can not say anything to the mother regarding the child's issues due to legalities!  They are not supposed suggest help. 

I feel you should tread carefully too because you could get the daycare into trouble.  Technically, the d/c should not be discussing the the other child having autism with you and *especially* not naming names!   All they are supposed to say is "another child"

It's sad about the mother, but I feel there is nothing that can be done except maybe trying to befriend her.  Denial is very strong. 

I'm going to be in a simillar situation.  A child in the younger program will be moving into my son's program.  The younger child has violent behaviours and could put a sailor to shame!!  My friend has a child who is in the same class and what she felt was that it was better her child was being influenced in a safe environment that she could assist with than when he gets older.  It has turned out to be a great learning experience.  ME, on the otherhand, I am taking my son out of the program.  This other kid needs the support  more than my son and I was lucky enough to find an integrated summer camp where some of my son's friends will be.  My son is would pick up on all the wrong things and I don't want to go through the hitting thing now that it's gone.

That is very true.  You can't even mention the other child's name or even the child's mother's name.  It is considered a privacy issue.  Maybe the only thing you can suggest is that something is done with the other child regarding the behaviour. Also keep in mind there is the thin line of stepping on the other mom's parental responsibility.  Maybe you could switch your child to another classroom.  As far as hitting back, alot of schools have a no bullying policy now and that might get your own kid in trouble more than the other kid.  Unfortunately most schools don't deal with the behaviour, they just redirect it.  I know it is frustrating, believe me I do.  Gabe's first three schools let him run the program because they wouldn't deal with the behaviour.  And also keep in mind there is school policies on discipline and how far a teacher can actually go and each district and each state varies on that.

Tammy

Hollie, Personally I think I would consider if my autistic child hit another child how would I want it handled?

Being in a situation right now where the school is refusing to see my son's issues I am concerned for this boy as well. I feel the school needs to have documented the incident each and every time it happens and  "write it up" It needs to be in the child's record or file so at a  later point it is reviewed to see if there is a pattern or a serious problem that needs addressed. By handling each individual situation and never documenting it for evaluation its doing a dis service to the child and denying him help he may seriously need. Like what my son has been going through this school year.

If the mother is in denial it also needs to be addressed with her each time the child has a problem. Maybe, HOPEFULLY the mother will begin to see a pattern and start reaching out for help for her son... Parents in denial many times are not ignoring the problem because they think the child is so perfect and doesnt have a problem... instead its because they love the child and cant stand the pain of the diagnosis and realizing the child will always struggle.

Perhaps you could try to become friends with her. Talk about Nates autistic issues and offer support... Dont push on her "I hear your kid is autistic too" but maybe wow kids are rough... my nate isnt sleeping well or eating well or is driving me nuts with repetitive behavior or echolalia or whatever you think might relate with her son... open a window with her to talk with you about it so maybe she can accept her kids diagnosis and start getting help for him. Maybe if the window of opportunity is there mention a support group you found that is helpful or this board "sometimes my only sanity is this message board with parent of autistic kids they are the only ones who really get how I feel and understand it" Something like that. Maybe she will feel comfortable to come out of her shell if she doesnt feel like she will be critisized for for her sons problems. Mention when Joshua and Nate get into it I  whatever so she knows you understand.

The school needs to become consistent but unfortunately you are not allowed to tell them what to do with someone else's child I would mention it to them... show them info on sutism and consistency since this is the same school Nate will attend and you would want it for him... I would tell them especially since there isnt home support for the kid the school really needs to step up to help him before its too late and the aggressive behaviors become a pattern.

As far as your son Joshua you absolutely have the right to be upset over what happened.. it does need to be addressed. Joshua should not have to feel like he is second best to autistic issues with classmates or his brother... he needs to feel safe at school and as important and valuable as the next person. Telling him to "understand" because of his classmates disability, or his brothers if that ever became a case *Im not implying anything here just using a generalization snce all siblings have squabbles* would make joshua feel like he didnt matter. It is a tough situation when the child has a disability that this is common with and they cant understand but it needs to be addressed and taught. Joshua doesnt need to be taught to always over look his own safety, and mental well being and self esteem because of someone else's problems... you want him to be able to stand up for himself but also dont want to teach him violence toward everyone doing him wrong... a very hard thing to teach indeed.

You DO have the right to be mad. How would you want it to be approached if Nate hurt a classmate repeateedly and the school was inconsistent in helping him (thus ignoring the problem and adding fuel to the fire) No you arent asking the kid be crusified but for HELP for him and Joshua. I had to ask the bus driver to write my son up for misbehavior which wasnt easy to do, bt I had to do it to get him the help he needs and to teach him right and wrong when Im not there.

Enikkibaby I couldnt get your first link to work ?? I think slipping papers is an option although if the mom is in as much denial she probably will just be angry and throw it away... Autism and behavior specific info woul dhelp best Specific and to the point help nothing she has to read and read and read through...  I would also show the school this web site http://www.glc.k12.ga.us/BuilderV03/LPTools/LPShared/lpdispl ay.asp?LPID=15736 (its about 3/4 of the way down the page) with accommodations for kids with different special needs issues such as

Accommodation

For students with exceptional needs, what changes can be made in instruction and teaching delivery to enhance student participation and learning? Each area below is a direct link to general classroom accommodations.

Non-readers     Physical Impairments     Sensory Impairments     Attention/Behavior     Gifted

Each disability below is a direct link to general classroom accommodations specific for that disability.

    Autism
    Deaf - Blind
    Deaf/Hard of Hearing
    Emotional and Behavioral Disorder
    Mild Intellectual Disability
    Orthopedic Impairment
    Other Health Impairments:
        Attention Deficit Disorder/Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
        Tourette Syndrome
    Significant Development Delay
    Specific Learning Disability
    Speech - Language Impairment
    Traumatic Brain Injury
    Visual Impairment

It might help them to help the kids at school that have special needs.

I also agree with Kellie and Panthosette,...  teachin gour kids to stick up for themselves and that the school legall can NOT tell you another students name.

I hope you find a solution that works best for you and your kids Hollie... I wish you luck..... please keep us posted

I think you were completely correct in telling the teacher that this should be written up for the child's mother -- but I also feel it should have been documented for the school.  Not in order to 'punish' the autistic child, per se, but be/c if he's acting out violently, it really should be noted and addressed.  Perhaps the child needs an aide while in class, if he's unable to follow the teacher's directions.  Protecting the child by letting the incident go unnoted certainly does a disservice to not only the child, but also to the other children he's hurting (the ones who should feel comfortable that they can go to school without fearing physical harm!).

Although (and this is VERY politically incorrect) I agree that boys need to be able to stick up for themselves and not get shoved around (and I guess girls, too, though not so much physically -- let's hope!), the biggest aspect of that is knowing WHEN to stick up for themselves ... and clearly fighting someone who is not thinking clearly or unable to control their violent tendencies is not a good idea.  If Josh showed restraint in doing so, I applaud him and your parenting!!!

Is there any way to ... in a friendly manner ... approach the child's mother and bring up the topic that your child was hit by hers?  Like, just to let her know that it happened so that she could address the issue however she sees fit?  That way you give her the benefit of the doubt by not confronting her with her son's condition and the fact that maybe she is trying to do things behind the scenes unbeknownst to you?  I don't know if there's a tactful way to approach the situation, but surely if your child (either one) hit another, you'd want to know about it!  Even if just to know that the child who was hit was basically unharmed.

Does that make sense?  Or am I off my rocker?

Good luck!  Kellie
That is a TOUGH one. I wish I had a concrete solution, but I am one to let the teachers deal with things as much as possible, because they get paid! (although not enough!)

However, if a child physically hurt mine, I would NOT be happy about it. I found this flyer today while searching google for something else..

www.ausm.org/information/general/autism%20flyer%20in%engli sh.pdf

And of course there is also:

www.nationalautismassociation.org/diagnosis.php

Maybe if you could slip her these printed papers it would help her confront the issue. I know it isn't that simple, but if she could recognise the problem, maybe she would get him into therapies and discover how to discipline him.

Ok, maybe this is a stretch, but I hate confrontation, and I think I would try something like it...

My advice!
I have a strange situation....just wanted some input from others.

Both of my boys go to the same preschool. Joshua, 5 is in the older class and Nate, 3 (PDD-NOS) is in the "little kid" class. There is a boy in Josh's class w/autism as well. Today, this little boy slapped and kicked Joshua and left a mark on his face. Apparently he was going up the slide and when the teacher tried to pull him off he kicked and hit Joshua, then when she put him in time out for going up the slide he got angry, ran from the chair and slapped Josh. She said that this is typical behavior for him. I spend alot, I mean, ALOT of time in their school on field trips, etc. and I have seen this child. The problem is that his mother is in denial about his autism. He has been evaluated 3-5 times, all saying autism and I have witnessed many of the behaviors myself. I have also witnessed his mother with him and she IS in total denial and doesn't do anything to control him. Autistic or not he would have discipline problems...Well, here is my problem...the teacher called me at home to tell me about it and told me she didn't write it up..I told her that was fine, but she WAS going to write it up for his mother. I know that she denies her son has problems, but c'mon now, if he had really hurt him...and I told her that if he did it again that I wanted to talk w/his mother. See....how do I approach this? Can I be mad because I have a son on the spectrum and I'm supposed to sympathize? Can I truly sympathize even though I know it's not his autism, just his mother who chooses not to discipline? (Also, at school he's not disciplined consistently with each teacher trying to take a different approach and NOTHING works.) Should I even try to talk to the mother? I'm not sure what to do, but I don't want him to hurt either of my children. I mean, what if it were Nate? What would I do? I keep thinking that I would do all of the therapy needed to help him...what if she is? What if the shoe were on the other foot?

And then you have Dad telling him just to knock him down and not to let other kids pick on him.......ideas????

~Hollie holliemama38497.7477430556
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