I have 3year old son with PDD-NOS who started school recently receiving 30 hrs/wk of programming. So far so good until we discussed of all things, toilet training. I feel he is very close to being ready as agreed by his Head pre-school teacher. She sent home the schools written copy of the procedure they use. In this it discusses some approaches to toileting that strongly disagree with at this time. Such as---- they would have him walk around the class in his shirt and just his underwear, no pants. They also use negative reinforcemnt if the child has an accident. If an accident occurs they take a reinforcer, such as M&M's, squish it in their hand, say something like "no pee here", then throw it away. They do this 5 times with each accident. And when they take him to the toilet they would hold him on the toilet and prevent him from leaving for 5 minutes. Well my reaction was NO WAY!
This will be our first time trying to toilet train him. I was just told by his team as to how well he is doing. His programing is focused on his language and his social skills. Why would I want to try this procedure at this time? He's three. When I ask him to go in the potty he goes. There is no reason at this time to think he couldn't be trained with a positive approach like my other children.
I meet with the Behaviorist, the Sp. Ed. Head and his preschool head teacher. I originally met with just the Head teacher to discuss my concerns and explained I didn't want him walking around the class in underwear, didn't want any negative reinforcement to be used, just positive, And I didn't want him held on the toilet for any reason. She agreed, we discussed how we would start this and when. However she didn't check with those in charge evidently because I was just told by the Behaviorist and the Sp Ed Direc. that this is the "procedure" they use, otherwise they would not train him and that I could not send him to school in underwear until he was trained. They conversation became a little heated when I told her as respectfully as I could what I thought of her procedure. I asked what research backs using this method and we went around in circles. They completely defended it. Well we agreed to disagree.
I'm still shocked that they would take one procedure and utilize it with every special ed. child. What happened to an individualized plan? Maybe in a couple of months or years of no success I'll be looking at this approach, I don't no. Am I alone??? What can I do? As I stated in the beginning, he just started school this summer.
OH MY GOD! that is all I can say. The approach they are using is filled with aversives and in no way would any school around here even be permitted to do such a thing!!! I just got my BCBA and we had to do so much work on the ethics of intervention etc..........and that a school could be doing that is sick!!!!!!!!!Oh, my word.. That is just outragious! I can't believe that anyone would try to potty train someone with that method! You are completly right in saying "NO WAY" It should be your terms or no terms!! I have never heard of a special ed school not going by the individual! I hope that every thing works out for you! My son is also 3 1/2 , PDD-NOS and not potty trained. I just don't think he gets the concept. Lovaas, the father of ABA, used to advocate HORRIBLE methods for toilet training. Like forcing a child to sit on the potty for 20 minutes and if they didn't produce within that time, then being stuck in a cold shower before being plopped down on the potty again. This method was supposed to be used all day until SOMETHING came out. To be fair, the method was not recommended for 3yo's, however it was not NOT recommended for 3yo's either. Perhaps one of the people at this school has some old Lovaas training and has been misguided by it. This should NEVER happen.Thanks for your support. This is still quite shocking that the Behaviorist and Sp. Ed. Director continued to defend this program and how much success it has had. When I mentioned it briefly to the Head Preschool teacher this morning, who didn't have anything to say during this discussion, she seemed much more understanding and reasonable, however her hands are tied. However she did say that she has seen it be successful. WELL, if I want to lose weight, I could starve myself and find that to be successful. Does that mean that's the right way to go about it??
I was told that the research this procedure is based from is by Richard Foxx and someone Azrin. By doing a general search I found some books he has written but nothing too extensive yet.
One good thing that has happened is that I had a follow-up appt. with my son's Develop. Pedi. yesterday, who works at the same facility the Behaviorist comes from. ( This is a public school where they have a Behaviorist that oversee's the programming and consults with the school approx. 3x/wk. ) The Develop. Pedi. was a little shocked as well and supported only using Positive Reinforcement and in her recommendations she was also going to include a toileting program. She took a copy of this "procedure" to show the Psychologist who oversee's this Behaviorist to get his opinion.
But here we go. I can't believe difficulties are starting already. My son's ABA program really seemed appropriate, but then this makes you question everything. I did write to the Head teacher today asking if there are other instances where negative reinforcement would be used? This seems like such a general question but I didn't know how else to phrase it and whether I was asking the write person.
Another think that you might want to consider. There is some research out there that shows that kids on the autism spectrum don't toilet train until they are at the point of putting together two word phrases that are COMMUNICATIVE. This does not seem to be because they need language to learn about toileting. It seems to be neuro/developmental. That the brain is developed enough to toilet train at about the same time it is ready to communicate in more than one word. If you think about it, that's EXACTLY how it works with NT kids. NT boys are know to train later and they are also known to talk later. Is it such a shock that our kids, who are know to talk even later, are not ready to toilet until later? If you look at the thread about what age did our kids train, I think you'll see that the majority were at least 4, many 5 or even school age. IMHO, these people are trying to do something unnatural with your child. If you feel strongly about it, DO NOT ALLOW IT. As this child's parent, you have that right.b*u*m*p
OMG!! That's crazy that your son is going to a school that seems to have so many special ed people on your team, and then this is the approach they use.
Is this a public preschool or a private pay special preschool. I can't imagine walking around with no pants on is ok with a school system. Most daycares are governed by DHR and I doubt they would allow this either.
I am a little shocked and I think you every right to be as well. There is a difference in encouraging a child to sit on the potty and holding him down. Exactly how do they hold him down? And squishing m&m's in a child's face, no way!!!!
I have always used positive reinforcers when potty training Autistic preschoolers. I couldn't imagine having to be so negative everytime there was an accident. And there are gonna be accidents. My 28 month old niece is NT and potty training. Does she have accidents? She sure does.
I wouldn't allow this preschool to potty train my son or to do anything like this. If they won't work out an individual method, maybe you need to ask yourself how far your willing to take it. I would think an advocate would eat this to pieces.
Don't feel bad about questioning this.
If they do produce any research that backs the method I would really like to see it. You are right- the method is WRONG. I also feel compelled to wonder if they are willing to use negative reinforcement in this area, when else might they use it? It has no place when teaching people with ASDs period.
Write into your son's plan that no negative reinforcements are to be used for teaching anything, and find a new school.
Hi there! I attended a seminar recently that focused on using positive reinforcement in schools, home, and at the workplace for individuals under the spectrum...from the very highest functioning to the most severely impaired. The speaker's name is Jim Ball, and he works out of NJ. He is a national speaker and consultant. Our local ASA chapter sponsored the meeting.
In any event, he said that there has almost never been a person with autism, child or adult, that he could not toilet train. He said the key is the positive reinforcer, which in his words, must be something "to die for". He has 20 years of experience, a PHD, and was one of the best speakers I've ever heard. His talk was practical and empowering.
You, as a parent, have the right to say no to a method of potty training. I would veto this school's method. My son is 4 1/2 and we are still working on toilet training. There is no rush.
Good luck and God Bless!
Wish I could remember the research . Read it about 10 years ago. It's not needing to have language to learn toileting. It's that the same part of the brain that controls language controls toileting (or at least that's the theory) so that if that part of the brain is developmentally behind, the child will neither have the neurological ability for language, yet, nor the neurological ability to toilet train.Sylver...I did tell them that in no way this method would be applied with my son. It's frightening to think that other families may have been convinced by this Behaviorist that this was the best approach. When I am ready to start training him consistently ( hopefully in the next several weeks) there may be an issue. I will expect that he'll be trained in a positive manner. This method did have all the praise and rewards that you would expect if he peed in the toilet, but the complete opposite if he had an accident. Who would I take this to if it does become a major issue?? I have already typed up the 3 major changes I wanted to this procedure they handed me, and tried to present it at this meeting. They didn't even want to look at it. I still handed each of them a copy but who knows what they did with it. Did I mention he just started school.
tzoya--- good point about needing language to learn about toileting. Any research you can direct me to?